Sunday, March 25, 2007

An open letter to a converted Christian

An Open Letter to a Converted Christian3/24/2007 7:34:55 PM B.Subramaniam GP.Srinivasan
Foreword

This is in response to a letter from Mr.Srinath, sent to a Tamil religious monthly, Panchajanyam, being published from Srirangam.

Srinath claims, though he was born as Hindu, a Vadakalai iyengar,whose origins were, Srirangam.

He confesses, he has been under the spell of missionaries, and would like to convert to Christianity. In his long letter to the editor, running into three pages, in Tamil, he has expressed his displeasure against Hindus and Hinduism, for its caste practices. He claims that Christianity and Islam do not have these “evil practices", and hence better religions. He asks”why there are so many Gods in Hinduism"? and has borrowed all the missionary criticism of Hinduism. He himself has no knowledge of Hinduism and does not know the abc of Hinduism. Toward the end of his rambling that turns into a political assault. He asserts that Hinduism will be wiped out by Christianity and Islam.He suggests,the editor of Panchajanyam should "read Bible' and reply to him. Our purpose, is to educate Hindus first, hence this detailed writeup.We are not interested in educating Christians. Hindus themselves do not know their wealth of their heritage is the pitiable state of affairs. Hence this reply.Sincerely,B.Subramaniam GP.Srinivasan-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dear Mr.Srinath,YOU MAY GET TEMPORARY BENEFITS BUT NOT PERMANENT SOULTIONS BY CONVERTING TO XTIANITYThis is with reference to your letter to PANCHAJANYAM. I feel very sorry for the state of despair shown by you in your letter. I pray the ubiquitous Almighty to remove all the problems that you are facing.Now the following points to clear your doubts : We all (including you) follow Sanaathana Dharma. i.e living structure which can be followed by all. Before the advent of religions generated in the west viz. Christianity and Islam, our religion was followed by all on the earth with slight variations in different sects. Our place (which you call India), was called as Bhaarath Varsha – a tribute to a sage Bharath Muni.

Monotheism and Polytheism

We also have a single God (Almighty) – Brahman. It is neither HE (as in case of Christianity or Islam) or SHE. (In Christianity & Islam,the male domination is very prevalent, but not in our religion). It is just IT. IT is shape less, size less, genderless and beyond normal human comprehension. Though IT (Almighty) has formed several dimensions, IT is in zero dimension.

Siva purana says the Almighty has formed 64 dimensions. And a jeevaatmaa has to start its journey from 64 th dimension, and on better performance will be elevated to next lower dimension. We in 3 dimension will be elevated to 2 dimension on doing good physical deeds or thrown down to 4 dimension for doing bad deeds. The 2 dimension is of Swarga (Heaven) and 4 dimension – Naraga (Hell). 1 dimension is the place of Gods and Demigods whereas 0 dimension is the place of Almighty.

In KathaUpanishad, the Almighty is referred to as Anoraniaan, Mahathomahiyaan- Smaller than an atom but bigger than the biggest. The Almighty made this universe out of its own thoughts and is present in every place and in every living organism and hence called Sarvaantharyami (Omnipresent, Ubiquitous).
Just like an office having different departments, IT manifests itself into three functionaries viz. Brahma – God of Generation, Vishnu – God of Organizing and Shiva – God of Destruction. (Para Brahman Almighty) as GOD –Generator, Organizer and Destroyer. Hence irrespective of the religion, the maker is the same. Since we need to have staff to perform duties in every department, we have 33 Crore Devas who are there to perform individual duties, governed by Indra. Again in Katha Upanishad, Yama says that he is in the post of Yama due to performing a special type of Yagna called Nachiketha Yagna. Once the effect of the good deed is over, he will again thrown in to normal birth and death cycle. Hence Yama, Agni, Varuna, Vaayu, Indra are only posts and any one can be elevated to that level temporarily. On completion of their period they will again be put in to normal birth and death cycle.

Facts about Caste System
Around estimated 16000 thousand years ago, Swaayambu who ruled before the present Vaivaswatha Manu, created class among the mass for ease in civilization structure.

Brahmin : Brahmasya Gyaajuhu Braamanaha – The one knows or tries to know the Brahman is a Brahmin, he can engage in religious and teaching matters.

Kshaya Athra Veeryaha : Kshathriyaha – The one who has limitless body and mind power is Kshathriya – He can guard the kingdom and the people of the kingdom from enemies

Vishyasya Sooryaha : Vaishyaha – The one is bright like sun in finance matter of the society is a Vaishya;

Sha –Adhra : Shoodrha – One who can not be categorised in the first three classes belongs to this class.

During Shukla Yajuveda period i.e during Rama's period, i.e around 12000 years ago, in a single family, persons interested in spending more time in matters pertaining to Almighty will become a Brahmin, able bodied persons who were interested in physical fights became Kshathriyas; persons who liked to get involved in business became Vaishyas and who did not have any such above cited capabilities became Shoodras doing minial works in the society. Thus the classes were only on the basis of ability and profession and not on the basis of birth.
This went on for several thousand years, but boys born to a Brahmin father liked to spend their time in matters pertaining to Almighty like their fathers, boys born to Kshthriya father liked to get themselves involved in fighting and using arms like their fathers, boys born to Vaishyaas liked to get themselves involved in financial or business matters like their fathers and boys born to Shoodhra father liked themselves to be involved in doing physical works like their fathers. Thus a classification which was started on the basis of ability slowly changed in to classification on the basis of birth.

Hence the Classes were though basically formed on the basis of ability later changed in to classification on the basis of birth. This is the negative side of the classification.

The positive side is that since father and son belonged to the same working group, improvement in all the fields were visibly noted since father will teach his sons the nuances of work. Hence outcome in all walks of life was beyond compare.

Missionary Propaganda against Brahmins
Merely calling Brahmins as root cause for the deprived state of the 4th Class – is ridiculous. Brahmins themselves were only few in number and lived due to the generosity of the ruling class Kshathriyaas and business class Vaishyaas. Kshathriyaas fought wars and Protected. Traders amassed wealth due to their inherent tendency to do business.Therewere not many Brahmins who were rich and had landed property. Moreover Brahmins had the inherent tendency to help the poor.

The root cause of the deprivation of the all the classes were due to 1300 years of Invasions and Foreign rule imposed on Indians. In fact there was hardly any deprivation at all in the first place. There was a prosperous and Rich Society, that was perhaps rich even upto 1800 .The combined effects of Islamic invasions and Christian British resulted in the deprivation of entire Bharat. People were well off and productive. Food, Medicine, Water and Education were never sold in Pre British Times.You cannot offer the manager and peon of the company the same salary and other benefits. The Manager invariably gets better paid than the peon. This can not be attributed as deprivation by the Manager. Similarly the living conditions invariably differed between the 4 classes.

Compare it Vatican- all the top cardinals are Italian born Roman catholics, who run the show.It may surprisisng to many that the dalit christians feel cheated by the Church. They have conducted protest meet in New Delhi in 1999 when the Pope John Paul II came to India. The missionary of Charities of Theresa bojeaux of Calcutta, is run by Sister Nirmala, who happend to be Nepali Brahmin. The Vatican church has declared the abused varnaashrama, as recognised divisions, by council of diamper (udayamperroor). Though the Constitution of India by law has made untouchability, an offence, within the Hindu system, these divisions are still retained by the Roman Catholic order, in India.

The varnaashrama is based on human types .What is called personality traits, and suitability for occupation. Even in modern organisations these four types can be found. Even in NASA or Microsoft, the hierarchy is visible. There the board and the Chairman, followed by Top Management, next to are Management staff, and wokers. Even Biill Gates organisation employees are divided into categories, that will resemble the old hindu order. There are security guards even in Vatican and there are janitor whose job is clean the toilet of the Pope.

During the British rule, since Brahmins were picked up and sought after by the British to serve as translators in English, the British translated Sanskrit literature into European languages. Brahmins were offered jobs in British Indian Government. The combined fiscal policy, dismantling of the existing agararian system, trade,commerce, and handicrafts resulted in tremendous poverty.Longlasting famines resulted as result of these colonial policies by military adminstrators.
India was exporting upto 30 percent of its manufactured goods even in 1800.This made the Christian British jealous, and they robbed the country. Missionaries invaded the country and established bible schools. On the one hand they destroyed the existing system. "They virutually broke the back , and made the people crippled, and provided balm with the help of missionaries, who followed the invaders. Adding insult to injury they put the blame on Hinduism, Hindu Culture and blamed Brahmins for allthese. This was taught adnauseum in all missionary publications, and taught by every school and college. Every school going child was taught to hate their ancestors and become ashamed of its culture and heritage. Craftily the British further augumented this divison by creating, developing, supporting,institutions like the Justice party and made people of other castes go against Brahmins, that gave rise to Dravidar Kazhagam in Tamilnadu, by the famous Kannadiga E.V.Ramasamy Naickar (Periyaar).Hence Brahmins were easily made scapegoats as root cause for the deprivation of the 4th class. The missionaries were trying to develop Brahmin hatred in India, as they had done to Jews in West, that culminated in the World War II, where millions of Jews and others were slaughtered. You must know that Hitler himself was a Roman catholic, and his name has not been removed, from the Church. The Vatican Church tacitly encouraged Hitler.

Casteism in Chistianity In fact it has been openly seen in converted Christians that the class and subclass of their Hindu generation in the past is taken into consideration before finalizing marriages. A naadaar Christian will not have any nuptial relation with a mudaliaar Christian and vice versa. Similarly classifications do exist in Christianity and Islam also. Roman Catholic,Protestants, Catholic Syrians, Pentacoste, Jehovaa's Witnesses do not even see eye to eye with each other and go only in their way. A marriage between RC Christian and Protestant is next to impossible in reality. Each of them does not even consider the other sect as part of Christianity at all in the first place. We know how Martin Luther fought for forming the Protestant Lutheran church and he butchered thousands of people to form Lutheran church. Read history. Do not waste your time in reading the foolish, useless bible. There are many variants of bible and each say that it was the first to be released. No word in the bible belongs to Jesus Christ. The Bible and Christianity itself came into existence only after 300 years of Christ's crucifixion. In places like Bangalore there is the language problems between nativa kannadigas, who want the mass only to be conducted in Kannada, and Tamilians should their mass seperately.

Christmas- A Festival based on Lie
The birth date of Jesus as 25th December does not exist in any form of bible. Read real history. In fact there was Mithra civilization (sun worshippers and hence a sect of Sanaathana Dharma) which existed in the middle east at the time of Jesus's existence. They had the practice of starting their year from Winter solstice which falls on 25thDecember. Christians took the cue from them and arranged the birth date of Christ as 25th December and then started their new year from 6 days later. This was improved by Pope Gregory and hence we call English calendar as Gregorian calendar.

Whereas we people of Sanaathana Dharma start our new year from Vernal Equinox i.e from the day when sun is parallel to the equator and rising upwards which falls on 14th April. Read real history.

Divisions in Islam

Similarly Muslim Sunnis and Shiaas do not see eye to eye with each other and the battle is going on for several hundred years after the demise of Mohammed (Prophet?). A marriage between a Sunni boy and Shiaa girl in next to impossible. The Iran – Iraq war is a classic example of Shiaa – Sunni fight. It is unending. Mohammed only prophesied hatred among his own people and he ordered that all non muslims (kafirs) should be slaughtered, and they do not have the right to live. Read real history. Do not read Koran. It only preaches hatred.

Beauty of Sanathana Dharma

There is full fledged philosophy in Sanaathana Dharma which is absolutely lacking in Islam & Christianity. We call it Thathvam : Thath and Thvam – You. i.e. you are IT, and IT is invariably you.

Only Sanaathana Dharma equates the maker Paramaathmaa (Almighty) with the made Jeevaathmaa. That is that essence of Sanaathana Dharma. The maker itself is running as a deer and is hunting as a tiger. The hunter and hunted and the process of hunting are the same Almighty. This is called Adhvaitham.

In Naaraayana Suktham it says

'thasyaahaa shikhaayaa madhye paramaathmaa vyavasthithaha;
sa-bhrmma, sa-shiva, sa-hari, sa-indra, sa-akshara, paramaswaraat'

At the peak of the real heart (at the solar plexus) of each person, exists the paramaathmaa, IT is Brahma, IT is Shiva, IT is Hari, IT is Indra, IT is undivisible Supreme Almighty.

Maandukya Upanishad says 'Sarvam Hyethath Brahma, Ayamaathmaa Brahma' -
All we perceive are Brahman,My Athman (Soul) is also Brahman.

Bharath’s Contributions

We were the forebears in many fields of science and other departments. We had great mathematicians and we donated the concept of zero to the world.
We have developed Vaanashaasthra – Astronomy which was unequalled in the world at that time, and had many well known astronomers like Bhaskara, Aryabhatta. We were the first to educate the world that we have seven planets viz. Mercury – Bhudan, Venus – Sukran, Earth – Bhoomi, Mars - Ankaarakan, Jupitor – Guru and Saturn – Sani which are rotating around the sun in the same plane in the above cited order. (Uranus, Neptune & Pluto were known only after the invention of telescope). We were also the first to come out with two imaginary planets – Chaayaa Graham – Rahu and Ketu which were formed out of the difference in the orbital plane of moon with respect to earth, and they we responsible for solar and lunar eclipses. We were the first to develop astronomy as well as astrology thus trying to find out the future.

We had very highly developed Yuddha Shaasthra – The rules pertaining to wars and battles. It says a war has to be done on a one man to one man to basis only, and should be fought on a barren land outside the civilization, only by males, from sunrise to sunset. In the wars one should not be attacked by many or one should not get hit on the back. The womenfolk and children were never involved in the wars. The warring groups will fight it out on a pre decided open barren land outside the civilization and the winner of the war will take over the kingdom of the loser in a very smooth manner. Only in the invasions of Muslims and then Christians we found warring on civilizations killing womenfolk and children and muslims were the first to use weapons of mass destruction like guns and mortars from far away place killing hundreds of people. The war by people of Bharath was fought only from sunrise to sunset and on sunset both the warring groups will eat and go to sleep and resume war only the next morning only both the sides are ready. We had a sense of responsibility and reliability in all walks of life which was missing in the muslim and Christian invaders.
We were the first to develop high banking and lending system. In the west banks – banca: bench started very lately. We were of high caliber in business and financial systems.
Jewels like gold and silver and diamonds were discovered by us only and were then taken from us to the west. The importance of jewels were fist discovered by us. We were the first in the world to have a mine at Panna for Diamonds and Kimberly at South Africa came much later.
Gory History of Christianity and Islam
On formation of religions Christianity 2000 years ago,and Islam about 1300 years ago in the Palestine, (both Christianity & Islam have a very bloody history. (Crusades and Jihads)

Christians raised a thousand year war (crusade) and killed lakhs of people and set fire to the famous library of Alexandria so as to destroy the history of west before Jesus Christ. Muslims also had to wage several wars – Prophet Mohammed himself has a very bad history – he was working as a house hold worker in one house, surreptitiously made the mistress of the house Khatija Begum to fall in love with him and was thrown out of the place itself and ran to Madina, where he is said to have heard the message of allah? God, and then gathered an army and invaded Mecca and killed several thousands in the battle.He waged 52 invasions in his life time. Muslims have the shariyat law by which a male can marry 4 females and beget children from them itself clearly Proves that there was a need of men folk for fighting and women were considered only (animals unequal to men) for bearing children. Since there were many battles going on, they had to beget more males. Even today in many muslim families women have to wear bhurka and can not freely talk to men not belonging to their family. Muslim Kings viz. Ghori and Gazni invaded India from West. Then came the Christians in 1600 AD. And since our country is on the other side of Sindu (Indus) river, the westerners started calling us as Hindu and this place as Hindusthan. Muslims may be as you said be the largest number of humans on the earth as a male can cohabit with 4 women and procreate any number of children. Similarly if he wants he can simply say Talak Talak Talak and divorce his wife permanently and get rid of her. Wait and see what happens to Islam and Christianity in the future.

'The wonder that was India'

The history of our Bharath (which you now call as India) was a wonder. Please read 'The wonder that was India' written by Mr.A.L.Basham, an Indologist working in Canberra University. He only calls this wonder existed before the invasion of Muslims and Christians to Bharath.

Foreign Invasion

In those days Bharath which comprised of 56 independent nations was supposed to be the richest place in the earth, and every one thronged to come here. Even Alexander who was the king of Macedonia (now part of Greece) came to this place only in an ambition to plunder but was forced to return as he was totally defeated by Pururavas in a war which was fought at the base of Himalayas. He went back to Macedonia in his late twenties and died there. Mohammad of Gazni, Mohammed of Ghori, Timur Lang (Forefather of Akbar) came only to plunder Bhaarath. Though they could do a little harm, they were forced to return back as they lost in wars with valiant Bhaarath kings. Babar could invade Bhaarath and permanently settle and spread islam here. In early 16 th century, Europians wanted to come to Bhaarath only with an ambition to do business and slowly plunder.

First Christopher Columbus from Spain left Europe with a ship full of warriors. Fortunately for us, he instead of turning left, turned right and reached islands (which we now call carribeans) and saw reddish people there. He thought that he has reached India, and called those people Red Indians and called those islands as Isles of the West Indies. But there was nothing to plunder as they were nomadic aborigin tribe and very uncivilized. Hence he understood his mistake and returned to his home land in dejected state. Within some years one by name Amerigo Carlucci from Spain invaded that place and landed in the mainland. He saw the same red Indian tribe there and butchered them in millions. The spaniards started occupying the place and named the main land in honor of him as America (AMErigo CArlucci). Then the Britishers followed suit and drove the settled Spaniards down south, who went to the continent of South America and butchered and eliminated from the face of earth, three great civilizations the Mayan, the Inca and the Aztec civilizations all of who were sun worshippers and hence were variant sects of Sanaathana Dharma..
The countries in South America viz. Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Peru etc.have people speaking languages of Spanish origin. The original people who belonged to that place the so called Red Indians have become minorities and third rated citizens in their own land. Hence your so called Christians did not win the world by love and amity as you think but butchered people and usurped their land and belongings.
In late 16th century Vasco Da Gama from Portugal left for Bharath in ambition to do business and slowly plunder since Bhaarath was said then seen to be the domain of wealth. He came and landed near Kozhikode and slowly occupied that place by butchering the local inhabitants and occupied the costal place up to Goa. His tribe was very famous for butchering the locals, and they also engaged in converting people forcefully. One of them by name Francis Xavier who was a pirate, has a record of Inquistions; organised killing of Brahmins and molesting their wives. For is such good deeds he was deified as Saint Francis Xavier. Then came the British and formed East India Company and started slowly usurping land in the name of business. As a custom the local kings gave them all help to do business in their kingdoms without knowing their bad intentions. The Britishers slowly usurped land and started infighting among local kings. They would tell a king to invade the territory of a nearby kingdom and support him with their arms. On the loss of the other king, they will kill the losing king and also kill the king whom they originally supported and annex both the kingdoms. This was their practice. Slowly they usurped the whole of Indian subcontinent and became outright rulers of Bhaarath. They also engaged themselves in converting local Hindus by offering a job in British Sarkar. This was their game play. They had Bhaarath in their control for bloody full 350 years and called Bhaarath as the Jewel in the Crown of British kingdom. They plundered Bhaarath right and left and took several hundreds of ship loads of jewels from Bhaarath and only because of their plunder Bhaarath became one of the poor nations in the world.

Perverts or Pastors?
You said about sexual exigencies found in Shankaracharya. Though Nakkeeran (of Dravidar Kazhagam which is anti Brahmin) released such lousy stories, SHankaraachaaryas follow total celibacy and it impossible to even dream of sexual malpractices. Even many of your popes and bishops were said to have illicit sexual experiences in Vatican with the nuns. We do not bother to question them because we are not interested in others' perversions.

Chritianity’s hatred to Jews

The Vatican is said to be the wealthiest place in the world. History says that since judas was the chief cause of jesus's crucifixion, Christians considered Jews (Judas and even jesus was jew) as eliminable. There was unending fight going on between jews and Christians which was Crusade. History says the Hitler (a devout Roman Catholic Christian) started killing jews only at the behest of Vatican and since Jews were thriving in Europe, he killed millions of Jews in gas chambers and usurped their properties and donated to Vatican. The Jews had a religious habit of circumcision, which Muslims copied, and by this only Hitler could pinpoint Jews and butcher them. Thus Vatican became the richest place in the world. Many jews (the famous Albert Einstein was one of them) had to flee to America surreptitiously leaving all their properties in Europe, which were easily annexed by Hitler. This mass destruction of jews became the cause of II World War, and forced the Jews to form their own home land of Israel (Isara El – Abode of god). The then President of U.S.A – Harry Truman (a jew) wanted to drop the atom bomb on Germany, but he was stopped by Britain and France who were America's allies in II World War, since they feared nuclear rainfall on their countries will destroy many people & properties. Hence the 2 atom bombs (little boy and fat man) were dropped in Japan at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. This is the real bloody history of Christianity. Read real history.

Why no to Conversions
Though conversions are rampant in Christianity and Islam, it does not prevail in Sanaathana Dharma. This is because just the way we don't choose our parents, or our children, we can not choose our religion also. We are born the way we are, and the way is given to us by the Almighty. We have no say in that. I may call some one other than my father as father and someone other than my mother as mother. But my body which is made out the blood of my father & mother and the span of 9 months and 9 days I stayed in the womb of my mother can not be altered by me. I genetically resemble my real parents. Similarly I have no right to change my religion.
This is because we people of Sanaathana Dharma believe that the Almighty is the same for everybody, only the way you perceive IT and call IT differs.You can call IT as Eashwara, or God or etc. Kena Upanishad says

Ekam Sath;Viprah Bahudhaa Vadhanthi -Truth is only one; various people call it differently

Hence we do not believe in converting people of other religions to ours and similarly do not believe or like conversion of people of our religion to other religions. We are the only to believe in poorva (past) janma (existence) and next Janma. The birth and death sequence is absent in desert religions. Also they have only heaven and hell where one enjoys or suffers. Only we talk of Moksha – Remerging with the Almighty and ending the birth and death cycle.
Our Dhasaavathaara is the best example. It shows the path of evolution from Mathsya - Aquatic, Koorma – Amphibian, Varaha – small earth dwelling animal (pig), Narasimha – Lion – Man combination, Vaamana, Raama & Krishna – evolution in humans, and final Kalki – The begetter of pralaya and restarter of new evolution cycle. This reflects the biological findings also.

Your problems in your life are not because of religion. They should be because of your deeds in the previous birth or this birth itself.Please read Tirumoolar's Thirumandiram. It says

Thaane thanakku pagaivanum nattaanum
Thaane thanakku marumaiyum maiyum
Thaane thaan seidha munvinai thuppaanum
Thaane thanakku thalaivanumaame


You are your own enemy and friend, you are your own past and present, you are bearing the fruits of your past deeds, and you are your own master.

For the problems you are facing, sit down and think in a very detached way to get a solution and you will definitely get a solution. Converting to Christianity for money or for permanent solution of the problem is foolish. You may get temporary benefits but not permanent solutions. If that is so all the Christians in the world will be the happiest people on this earth. This is what we can say. Ultimately it is you who should decide. Definitely our religion Sanaathana Dharma will never die and will emerge as the only religion on this earth someday, because the Semitic religions are born out of falsehood and hatred, and hence will soon come to an end. Only our Sanaathana Dharma which teaches about perennial love will exist ad infinitum.
Dear Subramaniamji &Srinivasanji,I got higly enlightened by your look back on history, which is getting distorted or hidden by the semitic religions and marxists and prevented from reaching the common man. It is high time we educated our brothers on the greatness of our religion. In the meantime the complacent attitude even in the midst of misery shown by Sri. Purushottamji needs correction. Our scriptures do not teach us to bear all injustices. After failing all avenues for compromises the Mahabharatha war had to be fought. So there is a limit to which our tolerance can go. Otherwise there will not be anyone when you look back with your tolerance. Srinaths are already getting misled and ready to climb on the cross. He does not need your large heartedness, but you on the cross beside him .
A very well written article. As I always believe - lack of proper education is the down fall of The Great Culture and it is high time Hindus start educating form the lower level itself.
Dear sir, Do not abuse any one and followers of any religion. The only draw back with Christians may be they believe in conversion. But apart from that we Hindus have several things to learn from . We speak about Gau Seva but we Indians and in particular Hindus make her as political capital. We believe in building temples but not spending huge money for health and educational services. Now a days some Hindu organisations have stated to lead Hindus to medieval age. Hindus should introspect as to why Hinduism is sinking in India? Thanks to Indian Hundis that they don't believe in Fatva business otherwise Gundas would have ruled over Hindus. Hindus should work for unity of India. They may and have right to oppose policy of appeasement of governments and should also oppose about minority status of few cases as it is against the Charter of UNO but remember that Hindus are Indians first and then Hindus. This is our culture and maintain it. P>V>Namjoshi.1,Adarsh Nagar,Indore.

Thursday, March 22, 2007

Sliding towards Civil War

Sliding Towards Civil War
March 15th, 2007 madhesi-->
Sliding Towards Civil War
March 14, 2007: The Hindus (Mahadhesis) of southern Nepal, make up about a third of the population, are poor, and want to get something out of all the changes that are coming. But the Maoists consider the Mahadhesis to be opportunists, trying to grab a share of power after the Maoists did all the work. Joining the Mahadhesis are the tribal peoples (of which the Ghurkas and Sherpas are the most famous), who also want to see some changes in their own situation. Leaders of these ethnic factions are competing with each other for followers. They do this up making bigger demands, and more threats of violence. There is also much anger against the Maoists by the majority of the population. The Maoists are led by upper caste Hindus, as are the political parties. The Maoists are seen by the tribes, and lower caste Hindus (like the Mahadhesi) as violent and untrustworthy. The political parties are seen as corrupt. The king is no prize either, but is seen more as a symbol of national unity, than anything else. The king, after all, is just another upper-caste Hindu. The caste system (there are four castes, plus about a fifth of Hindus who have no caste and are “untouchable”) is illegal in India, but still a major factor in social relations, and politics. Same deal in Nepal. March 13, 2007: Now both the political parties and the Maoists are calling for the monarchy to be eliminated. But many Nepalis want to keep the monarchy. Will they fight to keep the monarchy. No one knows. March 12, 2007: In the south, pro-Maoist students clashed with Mahadhesi protestors, leaving nearly 40 injured. March 10, 2007: The government agreed to give more parliament seats to the Mahadhesi people in the south. Violence continues in the south, with at least one dead, and several dozen wounded in the last few days. In some parts of the south, police have imposed curfews. March 9, 2007: Kidnapping for ransom is becoming more common in the capital, with at least twenty known cases of it in the last few months. Criminal activity, in general, has increased since the peace deal with the Maoists. That’s because police and army forces have been busy with the Maoist disarmament and increasing ethnic violence. March 4, 2007: A Maoist faction, Janatantrik Terai Mukti Morcha (JTMM), has threatened violence if the government doesn’t come up with money and other benefits for Maoists and their families. JTMM is based in southern Nepal.
March 2, 2007: The army is pushing for an investigation into the low number of weapons the Maoists surrendered. Many army officers believe the Maoists have hidden most of their weapons, in violation of the peace deal. The UN says it will look into it.
March 1, 2007: Now there’s an armed separatist group in the south, the Mahadhesi Tiger (MT) , who are kidnapping and threatening people who oppose their plan for a separate Mahadhesi state in southern Nepal. The Maoists oppose this, as do many Mahadhesi. There are other, similar, groups like Tarai People’s Liberation Front.
February 28, 2007: Mahadhesis have set up more roadblocks. For Nepal, the roads in the south are the main connection to the outside world. The resulting violence with Maoists left one dead and nearly 30 injured. Meanwhile, a coalition of tribes in eastern Nepal, representing about ten percent of the population, are also demanding to be heard. The Maoists are not too happy about this either.
February 27, 2007: Some Hindus (Mahadhesis) of southern Nepal, following the Malist example, have organized into armed groups, and are trying to support themselves by extorting businesses and wealthy individuals.
February 26, 2007: The government came up with more money for food and housing at the Maoist camps, and the fighters who had left are returning. The government will also provide the Maoists in the camps a dollar a day for spending money.
source::http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/nepal/articles/20070314.aspx
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4 Comments Add your own
1. mithila putra March 15th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
parmendra ji,what happened to madhesh.com, did it stop working due to pahadia pressure or technical,please reply in this same comment line of your web page if u or anybody come to read it.
cheers
2. kalyan March 16th, 2007 at 7:32 am
That is closed by government…
3. Pushkar March 16th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Hello, Kalyan Ji, I have checked the things that you wrote, Could say which government closed when? is there specific reasons? or you shifted somewhere else in another server? let me know.Thanks
4. SURENDRA MADHESHI March 20th, 2007 at 6:42 am
“This insight, which expresses itself by what is called Imagination, is a very high sort of seeing”Hello my dear friends,It’s a great pleasure on my behalf to announce the successful launch of “All India Madhesi Student Association”.Ah now its first ever time in my life that m so much energized even after doing such a laborious job. Energized to see rising madhesis, to see madhesis sharing equal status, living with dignity and I cant stop listing……….Yes am talking about upliftment of madhesis community with our main aim of providing every madhesi with “UDISE”. AIMSA is first ever association of its kind which is fighting for madhesis right at its root level. Students are considered building blocks of the society and provides support from within , without any selfishness.So come on our young, brave hearted and power boosted young generation to show a dream come true , to show our madhesh rising , to secure a better place in the community.This is a humble request from me and my community to all madhesi students to go through our mission’s information brochure and give a thought to its contents. I will be highly thankful to all of you for your support , cooperation and participation in this mission.” Lack of will power has caused more failureThan lack of intelligence or ability.”
Our information brochure is available on web. You can connect to us at: aimsaindia@yahoo.co.in , aimsamadheshi@yahoo.com .Your views and ideas will be highly appreciated.“JAI MADHESH….JAI MADHESHI”
“We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future”
With best regards,
SURENDRA MADHESI( FOUNDER MEMBER ANDACTING PRESIDENT , AIMSA)
CONTACTS:E mail at: susha_suren@yahoo.co.inMobile : +91-9886015017Tele : +91-820429780

Saturday, March 17, 2007

The truth about Aurngzeb



The truth about Aurangzeb
Francois Gautier
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FACT, the Trust which I head, is holding an exhibition on 'Aurangzeb as he was according to Mughal documents', from February 16 to 20 at New Delhi's Habitat Center, the Palm Court Gallery, from 10 am to 9 pm.
Why an exhibition on Aurangzeb, some may ask. Firstly, I have been a close student of Indian history, and one of its most controversial figures has been Aurangzeb (1658-1707). It is true that under him the Mughal empire reached its zenith, but Aurangzeb was also a very cruel ruler � some might even say monstrous.
What are the facts? Aurangzeb did not just build an isolated mosque on a destroyed temple, he ordered all temples destroyed, among them the Kashi Vishwanath temple, one of the most sacred places of Hinduism, and had mosques built on a number of cleared temple sites. Other Hindu sacred places within his reach equally suffered destruction, with mosques built on them. A few examples: Krishna's birth temple in Mathura; the rebuilt Somnath temple on the coast of Gujarat; the Vishnu temple replaced with the Alamgir mosque now overlooking Benares; and the Treta-ka-Thakur temple in Ayodhya. The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in four, if not five figures. Aurangzeb did not stop at destroying temples, their users were also wiped out; even his own brother Dara Shikoh was executed for taking an interest in Hindu religion; Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded because he objected to Aurangzeb's forced conversions.
Yet, Percival Spear, co-author with Romila Thapar of the prestigious A History of India (Penguin), writes: 'Aurangzeb's supposed intolerance is little more than a hostile legend based on isolated acts such as the erection of a mosque on a temple site in Benares.' L'histoire de l'Inde moderne (Fayard), the French equivalent of Percival Spear's history of India, praises Aurangzeb and says, 'He has been maligned by Hindu fundamentalists'. Even Indian politicians are ignorant of Aurangzeb's evil deeds. Nehru might have known about them, but for his own reasons he chose to keep quiet and instructed his historians to downplay Aurangzeb's destructive drive and instead praise him as a benefactor of arts.
Since then six generations of Marxist historians have done the same and betrayed their allegiance to truth. Very few people know for instance that Aurangzeb banned any kind of music and that painters had to flee his wrath and take refuge with some of Rajasthan's friendly maharajahs.
Thus, we thought we should get at the root of the matter. History (like journalism) is about documentation and first-hand experience. We decided to show Aurangzeb according to his own documents. There are an incredible number of farhans, original edicts of Aurangzeb hand-written in Persian, in India's museums, particularly in Rajasthan, such as the Bikaner archives. It was not always easy to scan them, we encountered resistance, sometimes downright hostility and we had to go once to the chief minister to get permission. Indeed, the director of Bikaner archives told us that in 50 years we were the first ones asking for the farhans dealing with Aurangzeb's destructive deeds. Then we asked painters from Rajasthan to reproduce in the ancient Mughal style some of the edicts: the destruction of Somnath temple; the trampling of Hindus protesting jaziya tax by Aurangzeb's elephants; or the order from Aurangzeb prohibiting Hindus to ride horses and palanquins; or the beheading of Teg Bahadur and Dara Shikoh.
People might say: 'OK, this is all true, Aurangzeb was indeed a monster, but why rake up the past, when we have tensions between Muslims and Hindus today?' There are two reasons for this exhibition. The first is that no nation can move forward unless its children are taught to look squarely at their own history, the good and the bad, the evil and the pure. The French, for instance, have many dark periods in their history, more recently some of the deeds they did during colonisation in North Africa or how they collaborated with the Nazis during the Second World War and handed over French Jews who died in concentration camps (the French are only now coming to terms with it).
The argument that looking at one's history will pit a community against the other does not hold either: French Catholics and Protestants, who share a very similar religion, fought each other bitterly. Catholics brutally murdered thousands of Protestants in the 18th century; yet today they live peacefully next to each other. France fought three wars with Germany in the last 150 years, yet they are great friends today.
Let Hindus and Muslims then come to terms with what happened under Aurangzeb, because Muslims suffered as much as Hindus. It was not only Shah Jahan or Dara Shikoh who were murdered, but also the forefathers of today's Indian Muslims who have been converted at 90 per cent. Aurangzeb was the Hitler, the asura of medieval India. No street is named after Hitler in the West, yet in New Delhi we have Aurangzeb Road, a constant reminder of the horrors Aurangzeb perpetrated against Indians, including his own people.
Finally, Aurangzeb is very relevant today because he thought that Sunni Islam was the purest form of his religion and he sought to impose it with ruthless efficiency -- even against those of his own faith, such as his brother. Aurangzeb clamped down on the more syncretic, more tolerant Islam, of the Sufi kind, which then existed in India. But he did not fully succeed. Four centuries later, is he going to have the last word? I remember, when I started covering Kashmir in the late '70s, that Islam had a much more open face. The Kashmir Muslim, who is also a descendant of converted Hindus, might have thought that Allah was the only true God, but he accepted his Kashmiri Pandit neighbour, went to his or her marriage, ate in his or her house and the Hindu in turn went to the mosque. Women used to walk with open faces, watch TV, films.
Then the shadow of Aurangzeb fell on Kashmir and the hardline Sunnis came from Pakistan and Afghanistan: cinemas were banned, the burqa imposed, 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits were chased out of Kashmir through violence and became refugees in their own land and the last Sufi shrine of Sharar-e-Sharif was burnt to the ground (I was there). Today the Shariat has been voted in Kashmir, a state of democratic, secular India, UP's Muslims have applauded, and the entire Indian media which went up in flames when the government wanted Vande Mataram to be sung, kept quiet. The spirit of Aurangzeb seems to triumph.
But what we need today in India -- and indeed in the world -- is a Dara Shikoh, who reintroduces an Islam which, while believing in the supremacy of its Prophet, not only accepts other faiths, but is also able to see the good in each religion, study them, maybe create a synthesis. Islam needs to adapt its scriptures which were created nearly 15 centuries ago for the people and customs of these times, but which are not necessarily relevant in some of their injunctions today. Kabir, Dara Shikoh and some of the Sufi saints attempted this task, but failed. Aurangzeb knew what he was doing when he had his own brother beheaded. And we know what we are saying when we say that this exhibition is very relevant to today's India.
May the Spirit of Dara Shikoh come back to India and bring back Islam to a more tolerant human face.Francois Gautier
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THE GREAT EMPEROR ''AURANGZEB''by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:34 PM
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Fortunately, in recent years quite a few Hindu historians have come out in the open disputing those allegations. For example, historian Babu Nagendranath Banerjee rejected the accusation of forced conversion of Hindus by Muslim rulers by stating that if that was their intention then in India today there would not be nearly four times as many Hindus compared to Muslims, despite the fact that Muslims had ruled for nearly a thousand years. Banerjee challenged the Hindu hypothesis that Aurangzeb was anti-Hindu by reasoning that if the latter were truly guilty of such bigotry, how could he appoint a Hindu as his military commander-in-chief? Surely, he could have afforded to appoint a competent Muslim general in that position. Banerjee further stated: "No one should accuse Aurangzeb of being communal minded. In his administration, the state policy was formulated by Hindus. Two Hindus held the highest position in the State Treasury. Some prejudiced Muslims even questioned the merit of his decision to appoint non-Muslims to such high offices. The Emperor refuted that by stating that he had been following the dictates of the Shariah (Islamic Law) which demands appointing right persons in right positions." During Aurangzeb's long reign of fifty years, many Hindus, notably Jaswant Singh, Raja Rajrup, Kabir Singh, Arghanath Singh, Prem Dev Singh, Dilip Roy, and Rasik Lal Crory, held very high administrative positions. Two of the highest ranked generals in Aurangzeb's administration, Jaswant Singh and Jaya Singh, were Hindus. Other notable Hindu generals who commanded a garrison of two to five thousand soldiers were Raja Vim Singh of Udaypur, Indra Singh, Achalaji and Arjuji. One wonders if Aurangzeb was hostile to Hindus, why would he position all these Hindus to high positions of authority, especially in the military, who could have mutinied against him and removed him from his throne? Forward Report abuse

THE GREAT EMPEROR ''AURANGZEB''by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:33 PM
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Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb: Bad Ruler or Bad History? By Dr. Habib Siddiqui Posted: 9 Jamad-ul-awwal 1427, 5 June 2006 Of all the Muslim rulers who ruled vast territories of India from 712 to 1857 CE, probably no one has received as much condemnation from Western and Hindu writers as Aurangzeb. He has been castigated as a religious Muslim who was anti-Hindu, who taxed them, who tried to convert them, who discriminated against them in awarding high administrative positions, and who interfered in their religious matters. This view has been heavily promoted in the government approved textbooks in schools and colleges across post-partition India (i.e., after 1947). These are fabrications against one of the best rulers of India who was pious, scholarly, saintly, un-biased, liberal, magnanimous, tolerant, competent, and far-sighted Forward Report abuse

WE ARE ALL COUSINSby Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:32 PM
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RAFI IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AS PER THE ISLAMIC BELIEF "EVERY HUMAN BEING BORNED AS MUSLIM". THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT CHANGED THEM TO THD DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECT. I AM PROUD SAY NOT ONLY MY, BROTHERS KALYAN MITRA, CHATANYA KUMAR AND OTHERS' ANCESTORS WERE MUSLIM. WE ARE ALL COUSINS. Forward Report abuse
RE:WE ARE ALL COUSINSby pranat on Mar 17, 2007 06:03 PMcan we say that we are all born to serve humanity before religion consumes us Forward Report abuse

Reply to Mr. Rama Anand Rao - This is the few sayings of books of your culture. which is practised mostly.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:44 PM
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Read few for your reading. Lust, anger, greed, pride etc., constitute the most powerful army of Ignorance. But among them all the fiercest and the most troublesome is that incarnation of Maya called woman. Yudhishthira said: O best of Bharatas, I wish to hear thee discourse on the disposition of women. Women are said to be the root of all evil. They are all regarded as exceedingly frail. There is nothing else that is more sinful than women. Verily, women are the root of all faults. That is certainly known to thee, O Narada! Women, even when possessed of husbands having fame and wealth, of handsome features and completely obedient to them, are prepared to disregard them if they get the opportunity. Listen, O sage: the Puranas, the Vedas and the saints declare that woman is like the vernal season to the forest of ignorance. Nay, like the hot season she dries up all the ponds and lakes of Japa (repetition of mantras or the Lord%u2019s name), austerity and religious observances. Again, lust, anger, pride, and jealousy are so many frogs as it were; like the rainy season woman is the only agency that gladdens them all Ayodhya Kanda, 39-21, 39-23 "It is also characteristic of faithless women to lead a false life, do acts unworthy of them, possess a heart ever unfathomable, be inclined to do sinful acts and in a trice cease to be affectionate." Aranya Kanda, 45.29 "It is the nature of women all over the world to be vicious, fickle, and sharp-tongued and to sow seeds of dissension A true wife thinks not of God when she rises in the morning. She offers her worship to the husband and that is enough. Even the clouds will obey and pour the rain at her command. Ansuya (Rishi Atri's wife) said to Sita: "A woman is impure by her very birth; but she attains a happy state by serving her lord (husband)". Fom the Bhagavad Gita, Ch.9, Verse 32: "For, taking refuge in Me, they also who, O Arjuna, may be of sinful birth--women, vaisyas as well as sudras--attain the Supreme Goal." Commentary by Swami Shivananda, Rishikesh: "........Women and Sudras are debarred by social rules from the study of the Vedas. ...." The practice still popular that when woman in Mensuration does not allow to enter inside home, stay aloof, do not touch to eating utensils, can not wear good clothes. The woman her husband died in the young age does not allow to marry, does not allow to wear colourful clothes and wearing jewellary. these are the common practices. Sati as per your holy books still valid. Even India many times it was forcefully practiced. Woman and Islam I posted already article about. Go check and compare and then tell. What is the truth. You want more blockbusters tell me. Forward Report abuse
RE:Reply to Mr. Rama Anand Rao - This is the few sayings of books of your culture. which is practised mostly.by pranat on Mar 17, 2007 05:09 PMShri. Rafiuddin farooqui from Hindustan, Every religion has its share of old outdated rituals and practices that dont hold any place now. These practices include say beating your self and bleeding yourself on moharram, treating women as un-equal and not allowing them to work, child marriage, social inequality and perhaps all the things that you have mentioned. So to an extent these are present in all religions. But progressive religions move ahead and assimilate things that are good and reject things that are bad. I dont see this is Islamic countries barring UAE/Bahrain etc. I see that radical elements in Islam become stronger than the state and all that they like is radical Islam and sharia law. Education , hospitals, development all can do to the dogs then. All women can just stay at home and serve their lords and the lords( husbands) can go ahead tortting their AK-47/hand held granades and start coverting/killing kafirs/shia/sunni/journalists/americans/jews/cristians/burning libraries. I dont think that you and your family want to live in that society governed by the strict interpretation of the sharia laws ( as done by Taliban)..do you? I am sure you dont, i would like to hear you views. Forward Report abuse

Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:16 PM
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The poor Hindus doesnt know what their Culture said. quote The woman in the West is dazzled by the glamorous rush and speed of the modern age. She does not like to do her household duties. You can find her now in the house of parliament or at the typewriter. She is a telephone operator, a pilot, a film star and a shop assistant. She compliments herself in the thought that she is sharing and lessening the work of man. She vies with him in his field and tries to oust and replace him. She has asserted her rights and broken the four walls of her home. She works in the war zones and industries. She thinks that she lives a glorious life but it is not so. She is not really peaceful and happy. Women can no more do the work of men in the world than men can do that of women. %u2026 If they withdraw from their homes, the result will be disastrous. There will be subversion of domestic discipline and family order, and social decay will set in. Children will grow up uneducated and sorely neglected. Unquote What I found on the Net Educated illeterate. Taleem hasil karke bhi Jahel raha Nadan ko ulta palta to bhi nadan raha. Forward Report abuse
RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 04:23 PMwith more guys like you, women will realize that their real threat is from Islam who wish to limit their presence to kitchen and bedroom. I hope the Burkha dutts and Arundhati Roys are listening. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:56 PMHi Chaitanya I love you are again. We never against women to get knowledge and become super human but with modesty and chastity. We do not want women to become flesh Market. Our prophet said the getting of the education is the right of men and woman. They must get education. This is todays need. But Moral values should be maintain. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Secular Indian on Mar 17, 2007 05:09 PMIs that why in Islam it's OK for the men to rape their female slaves Forward Report abuse
RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by KALYAN MITRA on Mar 17, 2007 04:25 PMAre you sure your ancestors are not Hindus? Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:51 PMIslam teaches that every born in fitra means born Muslims and we adopt what ever around us. I and you born also Muslims but due you culture you are Hindu. My parents practicing Islam so I am Muslims. My ancestors were Originally Muslims but they adopted Hinduism, Chirtianity, Judaism, Jainism, Budhism but when they get the message of Islam. READ AND UNDERSTAND, As they are right minded, with good science, intelligent they embrass Islam. Wish you good luck. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Secular Indian on Mar 17, 2007 05:10 PMWe are all born as humans devoid of any religion. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:29 PMRAFI IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AS PER THE ISLAMIC BELIEF "EVERY HUMAN BEING BORNED AS MUSLIM". THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT CHANGED THEM TO THD DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECT. I AM PROUD SAY NOT ONLY MY, BROTHERS KALYAN MITRA, CHATANYA KUMAR AND OTHERS' ANCESTORS WERE MUSLIM. WE ARE ALL COUSINS. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by CG NAIR on Mar 17, 2007 06:05 PMIslam religion was established about 1400 years back. How could then "every human being born (there is no word like "borned" in English) as Muslim? Was there no human race before the advent of the Prophet? I would suggest my friends of all religions to read the free e-book "The Necessity of Atheism" by Dr. D.M. Brooks available on the site of Project Gutenberg. Also read the book God, Demon and Spirits by the late Dr. Abraham Kovoor (still not available freely)to put an end to their misplaced belief of superiority of one religion or the other.Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by on Mar 17, 2007 05:26 PMMr. Farooqui, I have heard such great things about Islam from a friend of mine. But what I never had any answer was that 'what % of Muslims are true Muslims'? It seemed it is negligible, given the total darkness prevailing in Musilm Socities worldover inspite of such great words of Shariat etc etc. Question is then: what is the effectiveness of such teachings and why would one care to accept these words as living standards of Islam? If the colossal Majority of Muslims do not care about fine teachings of Shariat Koran, then why would you ask the Kafers to undetstand the Muslim socitey in terms of those books? Funny, isn' it? Well, the answer is that it is pure baloney. The nice words of Sharit and Koran are just a cover for the darker side of the teachings. Forward Report abuse

Why such hypocracyby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 03:37 PM
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Reply to Mr. Fayyaz A against his message posted on Mar 17, 2007 11:09 AM under heading HINDU MUSLIM I indeed aghast for his small posting, wherein he has advised to avoid hatred. Though I do not know to whom he has addressed, and what for he has posted but I bow to his wishes and simultaneously I wish, such wishes should have been of all, but unfortunately it is not like that. I do not carry any prejudice, so I feel that all the readers are educated and intelligent, and probably are the regular visitors to Rediff. Recently, one gentleman, Shahalam had posted a long list on Mar 04, 2007 (under the news - UK Muslims converting our girls: Hindus %u2013 I think that the news has been deleted now), where the marriages or relationship were of inter-religion in nature i.e. Hindu-Muslim. The gentleman had selected very carefully and quite mischievously the name of those couple only where the males were Muslims and females were Hindu and mostly they were married and off-course few of them have separated / divorced. He used the relationship and marriage as USED and divorced / separated as ABUSED / DUMPED. Now all were celebrated couples, have their public life, normally belonged to upper classes and not at all fundamentalists. Even an ordinary person could well understand those are / were a relationship, continuing or broken, but those were relationship and none of them even thought that those were the case of USE, ABUSED or DUMPED. He also mentioned - Muslims always have this ability to target Gullible Hindu girls whether in India or UK. It is quite surprising that none of the Muslim readers had come to condemn the act such stupidity i.e. message posting. I do not know what the writer wanted to convey but he had depicted his insanity i.e. teaching of hatred and not coming forward by any Muslim reader, have shown that they had endorsed the writer%u2019s opinion or in other word they have endorsed and supported the act of hatred, and it is the teaching of Islam. If I have read that message, I am sure millions of readers must have read too and quite a number of people / organization might be planning to target or retaliate i.e. USED, ABUSED or DUMPED, the act probably nobody have thought even that the marriage is synonymous to these. What a mentality and what a support from their community. Had anything thought the consequence? I wonder if the Muslims females also in that way i.e. relationship is USE, ABUSE or DUMP. I am sure that many of my Muslims sisters must have selected their partners from other religion, and few might be planning to do so, and in future also some would do so. What a definition of relationship, USE, ABUSE and DUMP. Now I take the second case, under this article where Mr Mohammed Ahmed have been continuously justifying the act of Jihad, murder etc. should continue and he has given series of illogical reasons, and endorsed that the killing of innocent people, which he decides as devils and the murderer has right to do or in other word Jihad is must act for Muslims. It is the killer who would decide that who should be murdered and compared the act with court judgment where the judge gives the verdict for hanging. Apart from this he has comparison of capitalism vs communism etc. etc. In nutshell he has tried to spread a message that whoever does not believe in Islam should be ready to face the Jihad, as Islam wants to control the whole world. The readers must read the all message of Mr Mohammed Ahmed and my replies. I wonder if some extremists from other group decides that the writer is curse for humanity, which actually he is, and he must be eliminated then what would happen. In my all the message, I have tried to bring the facts and ignoring them is bringing to havoc to my Muslim brothers and all those are based on the discussion with educated Muslim (but absolutely not fundamentalists) people and with examples. I have really felt the pain among few. I strongly feel that the normal people is hardly interested with the religion of anyone, as long it is not affecting their personal life and it is the terrorism which is making the Muslims vulnerable. I strongly feel all Muslims are not terrorists; there are only few percentage. But it is also sure that these few percentages get full co-operation, be it hiding the information about the terrorists, be providing the shelter, be providing the logistics or any other support, otherwise act never be spread and it is just because of same. Now if the ISLAM teaches not to support bad acts and still they are getting the support of terrorism or Jihad, then people has to think about the teaching. The writer of message against which I am replying, must have not come to condemn any act, be it against the terrorism, be it against such nuisances message posting, be it against such religious leaders who bashes their celebrity sisters like Sania Mirza, Shabana Azmi etc. I am not spending my time to criticize anyone rather writing as their well-wisher and for my Muslim friends, who though openly accepts such crude fundamentalism and wants to break the shackle, practice humanism and wants to wash such dirty stigma which raises eyebrows of others. In other they want to keep alive the name of ISLAM as religion for humanity, the biggest religion of the world, mother of all religion and much bigger than ISLAM. I am sure all the readers (including Muslims, I hope majority are not fundamentalist) would understand my good intention. So far my background is concerned, I brought up in liberal, educated, cosmopolitan society, where the case, creed and religion carried hardly any meaning. I enjoy the relationship of all the community including Muslims and have lots of Muslim female friends also, but I enjoy their relationship, a relationship which is true in real sense, a relationship of humanism, not the kind USE, ABUSE and DUMP. The awareness among the Muslim female of very high level (may they because they educated), and they have deep pain about their social condition, they on and often discussed that the lack of education in their community (which is unfortunately promoted by their own community people, and wants to keep under shackle for their vested interest). It is the message of those my sister like friends that Muslim female has to fight against such evils and acquire modern education, this is the only salvage. Jai Hind An Indian Forward Report abuse

UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby jeremy williams on Mar 17, 2007 02:14 PM
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THE GUJARAT POGROM INITIATED BY THE RULING BJP GOVT., THE RAPING AND MURDER OF CHRISTIAN NUNS & PRIESTS BY HINDUTVA FORCES,THE MURDER OF GRAHAM STAINES AND HIS LITTLE CHILDREN IN ORISSA BY DARA SINGH ,A MEMBER OF HINDUTVA BRIGADE,THE CENTURIES OLD DISCRIMINATION OF THE DRAVIDIC NATIVES AND TRIBALS OF INDIA IN THE NAME OF CASTE SYSTEM.THESE ARE SOME OF THE HARSH TRUTHS MR GAUTIER WOULD LIKE US TO PRETEND DO NOT EXIST IN CURRENT DAY INDIAN SOCIETY.CRY MY BELOVED INDIA.CRY Forward Report abuse
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RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 02:42 PM"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942) Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 02:50 PMChristianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure?...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith.-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)More such quotes from Hitler in praise of Church from his Mein Kampf: http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby bharatiya on Mar 17, 2007 02:44 PMThe large scale demolition of Hindu temples by the portugese in Goa & by Muslims in the rest of India, the forced conversions, murder, rape & loot centuries after centuries cannot be forgotten. If you add up all the violent acts of Hindus in the entire history it will not even total to 6 months (& that too has always been as a reaction to something nasty you guys have done) whereas for Muslims & Christians it has been an everyday way of life for many centuries. Your b@lsh@% religions offer incentives like virgins & rivers of wine to lure you into crimes against humanity. You are agents of Satan on earth. It is a well known trick of the Satan that he pretends to be a devote Christian & shows his true colors when exposed. Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:02 PMAtrocities on Native people:Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion."While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ."In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead.The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous."The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive."Or, on another occasion:"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs."The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next."Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida)."When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."More Christian attricities(incomplete list):http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:09 PMyour list is really small Jeremy. Hindus and their so called "atrocities"(which even you need to exaggerate and concote with lies) are nothing before whatever happened in the name of Christ. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:17 PMall you christians do is point at the Hindu caste system and the discrimination in it while you hide the atrocities of Church that will bewilder the devil and satan. As if the caste system is only followed by Hindus and rest are egalitarian. What happened to the discrimination between ruling class, working class...bourgeois , proletariat. Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby pranat on Mar 17, 2007 03:23 PMAny progressive developing diverse country will have its share of problems in creating equitable distribution of wealth and social equaity that started in the last 3/4 centuries will hopefully be completed in this century. But clearly we neither did nor will like to go the way of Aurangzeb/Osama Bin Ladin (a radical Muslim) or lead a crusade against non cristin religions or have an Adolf Hitler here. These people wanted to kill humanity in millions. These were progroms to eliminate/annihilate other religions. Genocide directed at completely eliminating weaker minorities. I am happy that in Hindu Majority India, crimes of this horric nature have neither happened nor will happen. Thank the Hindu majority for this who are tolerant and stop crying about RSS/BJP at every given opportunity. Hindus now, in their own country dont even have a right to stop Islamic fundamentalism and cristian conversion... mostly encouraged by the outside powers and money. Forward Report abuse
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Why such acrimonious thinking Mr. Mohammed Ahmedby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 11:52 AM
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A fresh reply to mohammed ahmed on Mar 16, 2007 04:03 PM [RE:Why the Afghanistan or any other countries / territories are of / for Muslims] against his few queries: Your comments - Islam is global, from the beginning, we want Islam in the whole world. My reply - What is meaning of global (tell me the % of population, % of acceptance of willingness), what is meaning of beginning (how old it is, tell me about your ancestral background, who they were, if you abuse to your own ancestors whose blessings you are, whose blood you carry, then what is impression you are spreading) and what is meaning of, we want ISLAM (meaning peace and justice) in the whole world, who cares what you want you have right to accept anything why should I captivate myself or others to illiteracy , unscrupulous religious leaders. Even your thinking is dirty that you want others should follow it and simultaneously you are claming ISLAM (meaning peace and justice), if you preach ISLAM and meaning is it, how dare you can think about democratic rights of others or in the word you yourself is abusing and pitting to ISLAM. This is the biggest problem with you fundamentalist; you dare to think the others should follow you. Gentleman, people follow a path as per their wish, considering its good and evil, where the very basic nature of Islam (or what it has been propagated by your so called religious leaders) is barbaric and forced. You people never come to rescue your own sister like Sania Mirza, when she is bashed by your religious leaders, you never utter single word about our great H.E. President APJ Abdul Kalam that when your people say that he is not Muslims and he is puppet etc. etc. since he practices the humanism not fundamentalism and now it is barbaric thinking that you want ISLAM (meaning peace and justice) in the whole world, what a rotten thinking. Gentleman go and cleanse you mind, you have right to thin about you but you should not dare to think about others, as they also have the same right and they are more intelligent than you as they do not mortgage their mind and soul to someone that too illiterate religious leaders. Your comment - we preach everywhere about the Creator, good things of life, good living, cooperation, charity, meditation, circumcision, burial of dead bodies with dignity. My reply %u2013 By the way, who decides which is good and which is bad? How dare you can think about the whole world and their thinking? Do you feel yourself that you are capable to do so or you are also life self-styled prophet, who can decide the fate of whole world. I think I need to tell that in non of the Gulf country where Muslims are in population, they have declared it as Muslim country (forget about the secularism), no democracy is there, literacy rate is dismally poor, even the person hold some qualification (not education) they are captive to illiterate religious leaders, they have fear to use their own brain (always use to quote misinterpretations or interpretations of some phrases of some books / preaches, which they themselves do not know what they are uttering), and here in India, they live in India, eat in India, drink in India, inhale in India but they are loyal to Arab countries or Pakistan and they declare it proudly. By the way can you tell me what should I learn %u2013 Jihad, killing of innocent people, unpatriotic acts, illiteracy, kept myself under the captivity of someone etc. etc. You should think about yourself and let other think about themselves. You can think that the day may come when other people like you would start thinking about their own Jihad, as you have right to decide to kill someone, the others may have right to kill you and they would justify your killing because of rotten thinking. Why do you want bring the hell for your brothers and sisters? Have you not seen the repercussion of Godhra Train Carnegie? I do not know whether the real culprita got any punishment or not but innocent people were killed who had nothing to do with Godhra incident. An elderly person was killed who was not related to Godhra incident, but suffered only because the people of his age did not teach their younger generation about the good, bad and their consequences. Gentleman, do not spread hatred, rather live peacefully and allow others to leave peacefully. This is the essence of Humanism, the biggest religion in the world and much bigger than your ISLAM. I pray to God (or your Allah) to cleanse your mind and pour some good thinking on you. An Indian Forward Report abuse

hindu muslimby Fayyaz A on Mar 17, 2007 11:09 AM
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pls try to avoid to start the topics which increases the hate. kindly stop the topic, you are not doing the good .past is good ok but when it is bad then why are you opening it to initiate hate and mental block. an Indian Muslim Forward Report abuse
RE:hindu muslimby KALYAN MITRA on Mar 17, 2007 04:28 PMI do agree with you...forget past...we should start a fresh... Forward Report abuse

Read and replyby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 10:36 AM
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Reply to mohammed ahmed on Mar 16, 2007 04:03 PM [RE:Why the Afghanistan or any other countries / territories are of / for Muslims] Dear Mohammed Ahmed I could not understand the reason for your unusual anger as I had not target you but at the same time if you say that who told so for Muslim lands, you may go through several postings, under several articles, where your so fundamentalists brothers have written. At present I do not have the details, I am sure even under this article somewhere the people have justified Jihad for Israel occupied area, Iraq, Afghanistan, J&K etc. etc. claiming that there are fighting to liberate their motherland. Otherwise can you justify the meaning of Jihad and killing the innocent people, including children, woman and elderly people, only because you have gun in your hand and they are soft targets. Forget about the world history, just refer back the invasion of Islamic terrorists in this country, you may call it 500 years back or 1000 years back. Can you justify the forced conversion? Can you refuse the majority population is of forced conversion (there are 99.99% chances that your ancestors have also been forced, have you ever tried to go back to your own ancestors, when I telling this I strongly feel that you are from Indian origin), you can definitely think about your own ancestors, I repeat your own ancestors including female members and their agony when they were forced for conversion and other humiliation your female family ancestors had faced at that time (I could your understand what I want to say) . I am giving few links which are small example of barbaric invasion: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A5220 http://www.stephen-knapp.com/an_architect_looks_at_the_taj_mahal_legend.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/badshahnama.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/letter_of_aurangzeb.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/question_of_the_taj_mahal.htm My brother my intention is not to annoy you rather to request just to open your own eyes, open your own brain, the precious gift of Almighty (the supreme power, you may call as ALLAH, or whatever suits you), release yourself from the captivation of fundamentalist cages. I am pasting a message which I had replied to someone which can open your eyes and change your mind and attitude that I am new to this discussion. In this context I would like to confirm that I have discussed these subject to my several Muslim friends & colleagues (educated, not fundamentalists, who bow to the reality not the baseless teaching of so called leaders. I hope you are also an educated person. I would request you to kindly go through the history (I am not recommending any rather advise you to go to the reputed authors and publishers (including Muslims authors) and judge yourself, again only after releasing yourself from the cages of fundamentalism Message No. 1 Dear Musfar Ahmed and all the people of community who are spreading the hatred Since all the people are more or more than average intelligent so I hope you are also, you can definitely think that who were you ancestors, whose son / daughters you are. You can change your religion, your coming generations can convert them to any religion (by force, by lure or otherwise), but you can never change your ancestors, your background, your roots etc. So far the religions are concerned, it has been started by someone (here the Hindu religion is the only natural religion, adopted from the lifestyle of this country and has not initiated and propagated by anyone). Whatever may be the reason (mostly forced at that time) for conversion to Islam, but it is certain that the root of 99% is from our great India only. You may go through (if you can) the back history of your own family and then only you can understand the agony and pain of your ancestors (especially the ladies), if you have your ancestral background. Go to history, you can definitely find and if you have the courage go to your own roots (after all your carry blood your own ancestors, I repeat, blood of your ancestors). I could not understand the meaning of %u2018WE%u2019, is it MUSLIM or INDIAN, I can safely presume that it is as MUSLIM and if it so then also the Muslims are not in majority within the pre-British border, but again I am not like you who is spreading against their own ancestors (your forefathers) or anyone. I also could not understand what is the meaning of we would be in majority. My great country India has record or real democracy (not like other Gulf-countries), our majority people (you can call them Hindu) has tolerance to promote non-Hindu leaders (including Muslims), promote them on the basis of their talent (not on the basis of their religion, present PM and President is example, though there are other series of examples available), our majority cheers the success of any person irrespective of his / her religion (example, Sania Mirza, our people have never bashed or abused her, though there are series of example about her clothing etc. etc. by so called Mulls / Maulvis / Muftis but the majority of the Muslims never came to support her and condemn so called religious leaders, though the truth is this that she is from you community and your sisters. Can you tell any other country where majority has accepted the minority leadership? Even in sports such dirty and disgraced religious fanaticism can be seen, a classic example is conversion of Christian %u2018Yousuf Yohana%u2019 to Muslim %u2018Mohd Yousuf%u2019 (Pakistan Cricket Team), whatever reason could be given i.e. acceptance to forced conversion to lure conversion etc. but the truth is he has been motivated to convert to Islam (now one can think about his family and relatives and why the Govt do not ban such type of nuisances, because such acts are state sponsored). What force a person to mortgage their brain and soul to so call filthy religious leaders? Why a person do not use his or her brain, a gift or nature / almighty of all (say God, Allhah etc,) and follow the misinterpretations (or interpretations) of their so called religious books. Are the misinterpretations or interpretations of so-called religious books provide better insight than the gift of Almighty (God or Allah)? Are you not insulting the Almighty (God or Allah) by doing so? Why an educated person does not take their own judicious decision and depend on the so called religious leaders? Any person (irrespective of any particular religion) can think judiciously and find the reason of vulnerability, religious fanaticism and terrorism. An Indian Message no. 2 Reply to dear Essa Ismail Sait, message posted on March 12, 2007 01:39 PM I the outset I would like to make it clear that my intention is not to hurt anyone. In my personal life I had discussed the matter with many of my Muslim friends and they have ultimately agreed the truth (only because they were educated, not fanatic by heart). I received many lessons from father of one of senior (an it was most fortunate that the he was Muslim but highly educated but not only degree holder qualified, the elderly gentleman was Bar-at-Law, his son i.e. my senior was a Management Graduate and, and elderly gentleman%u2019s daughter were also highly educated which are very rare in Muslim community and almost all the family were settled in London and ultimately my senior had also resigned with an intention to settle there. I was too young at that time may be 20 years back when the elderly gentleman told me that my community has become too vulnerable as they have fallen under the trap of unscrupulous political and religious leaders who are exploiting the sentiments of our youth for their dirty interest, be it religious or political and the most dangerous part is, that our youth our becoming religious fanatic and major reason is their emotion because of illiteracy. These unscrupulous political and religious leaders would damage our community to irreparable extent. Now after such long years I salute to that elderly person though he is no more know, for his vision and who taught me the meaning of philosophy in life i.e. open your eyes, see clearly, analyse properly, never follow what my leaders have told or what is written here or there and act accordingly. Always follow the path of humanity, not of any community, be true to yourself and almighty.) Now I come to your objection and request, the meaning of natural religion, it means it has not been initiated and propagated by anyone, so it does not have any such restriction which tell that one should be bound within these rules. With apology I would like to mention that you could not dare to accept the truth (though it hardly makes any difference, because truth would remain the truth whether you accept it or not) that Indian Muslims carry the Indian background, the background of this soil only. I think I need not to explain further. It seems that you are an educated person and that is why you have classified the modes of conversion. I need not to explain you as to what method of conversion was adopted at that time, though you are not responsible for that but you would be definitely responsible for your ignorance and not accepting the truth. I have no intention that you should accept the truth in this forum. Generally all the people are blessed with intelligent brain, so are you also. You go through the history (if possible, go to your own family background, under which circumstances they were converted, though it is practically not possible) and you would find that the comparison of farmer or criminal is meaningless as I had never mention this. I do agree that the birth of Islam and entry (rather invasion) in this country was much earlier than Moghul era. As per my history knowledge, it was sometime 612 AD from where the real spread of Islam started and if my memory is correct then it is around 570 AD when Prophet Mohd born, again the historians are also not unanimous about the birth year. But the truth is this that Akbar was the only secular emperor, who had started real secular religion called DIN-E-ILLAHI, but today nobody remembers even. The profile of rest of the muslim emperors are quite dubious, barring Bahadur Shah Zafar, but he did not have the leadership quality, though he was not religious fanatic. You have right to believe anything that you are generation of Adam and Eve so is I and all, but what I wanted to tell that what your ancestors were in between. Again my intention is not to hurt anyone. You have avoided the episode of anger and agony of your ancestors; again you have hundred and thousands reasons behind it. I once again reiterate that none of the conversion of that time was of category 3, i.e. Converting by understanding the religion as the people of that era were very innocent and had deep faith in their own custom, the custom they inherited / borrowed, so your attempt to paste category 3 at that circumstances is totally meaningless / irrelevant and so your justification in subsequent paragraph. So far the case of Mohd Yousuf is concerned, it is an example only as the forced conversion can be from gunpoint to harassment to creating the situation etc. etc. I do not know whether you are pro-Pakistan or not, but you can definitely go through the census of Pakistan from 1947 to last and can judge yourself about the decline of other religion people in that country. I had raised many other facts also and you must have read those. I could understand as to why you could not gain courage to raise those, like about the acceptance of other leadership, about the democracy, about the secular nature of nation etc. etc. Can any Muslim country would allow any Hindu or any other religion people to lead them. My intention here is not to bash anyone rather tell them to see themselves with their own eyes, though I know it is useless. Recently I met with a Senior Executive of an Oil Company and was a Muslim. We were waiting in lounge and could spent time together. By sheer chancee the talk turned toward this hot topic and I could feel the deep pain in his face about the vulnerability of the community. He was worried about his teenage daughter and son, about their society as he told how difficult rather impossible go get flat / house in cosmopolitan society as the people of other community does not want mix-up for such bad names, what would happen about the life partners of their kids etc. etc. as the gentleman was not religious fanatic and he does not want to grow his children under such environment which is nowadays highly vulnerable and susceptible. Though it was a casual meeting, he was not open to me, but what I could understand that he would encourage his children to break the barbarian shackle during their college days in European or American countries. I could refresh my memories about the teachings of that elderly man. Though I personally feel that all the people are not bad and this is certain. But it is also certain that major cause of hatred is terrorism which can never prosper and flourish without local support, be it through network, shelter, communication, logistics etc. etc. You may not agree but it is truth, be it Godhra, be it Mumbai or be it Varanasi. At the end I thank you for your message, which atleast does not spread any hatred but simaltanously does not reflect broadminded view also which is the need of hours. I apologize for my little harsh language but I could not get any appropriate word also which can reflect my disagreement with you but again it is not with any wrong intention. I welcome my real Indian Muslim brothers and sisters to fight with evils, may be anyone, do not support to wrong doing, might have committed by your own brothers and then only you can win the trust of others, which is the essence of brotherhood and I hope of the Islam also. Jai Hind An Indian Forward Report abuse
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