The truth about Aurangzeb
Francois Gautier
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FACT, the Trust which I head, is holding an exhibition on 'Aurangzeb as he was according to Mughal documents', from February 16 to 20 at New Delhi's Habitat Center, the Palm Court Gallery, from 10 am to 9 pm.
Why an exhibition on Aurangzeb, some may ask. Firstly, I have been a close student of Indian history, and one of its most controversial figures has been Aurangzeb (1658-1707). It is true that under him the Mughal empire reached its zenith, but Aurangzeb was also a very cruel ruler � some might even say monstrous.
What are the facts? Aurangzeb did not just build an isolated mosque on a destroyed temple, he ordered all temples destroyed, among them the Kashi Vishwanath temple, one of the most sacred places of Hinduism, and had mosques built on a number of cleared temple sites. Other Hindu sacred places within his reach equally suffered destruction, with mosques built on them. A few examples: Krishna's birth temple in Mathura; the rebuilt Somnath temple on the coast of Gujarat; the Vishnu temple replaced with the Alamgir mosque now overlooking Benares; and the Treta-ka-Thakur temple in Ayodhya. The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in four, if not five figures. Aurangzeb did not stop at destroying temples, their users were also wiped out; even his own brother Dara Shikoh was executed for taking an interest in Hindu religion; Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded because he objected to Aurangzeb's forced conversions.
Yet, Percival Spear, co-author with Romila Thapar of the prestigious A History of India (Penguin), writes: 'Aurangzeb's supposed intolerance is little more than a hostile legend based on isolated acts such as the erection of a mosque on a temple site in Benares.' L'histoire de l'Inde moderne (Fayard), the French equivalent of Percival Spear's history of India, praises Aurangzeb and says, 'He has been maligned by Hindu fundamentalists'. Even Indian politicians are ignorant of Aurangzeb's evil deeds. Nehru might have known about them, but for his own reasons he chose to keep quiet and instructed his historians to downplay Aurangzeb's destructive drive and instead praise him as a benefactor of arts.
Since then six generations of Marxist historians have done the same and betrayed their allegiance to truth. Very few people know for instance that Aurangzeb banned any kind of music and that painters had to flee his wrath and take refuge with some of Rajasthan's friendly maharajahs.
Thus, we thought we should get at the root of the matter. History (like journalism) is about documentation and first-hand experience. We decided to show Aurangzeb according to his own documents. There are an incredible number of farhans, original edicts of Aurangzeb hand-written in Persian, in India's museums, particularly in Rajasthan, such as the Bikaner archives. It was not always easy to scan them, we encountered resistance, sometimes downright hostility and we had to go once to the chief minister to get permission. Indeed, the director of Bikaner archives told us that in 50 years we were the first ones asking for the farhans dealing with Aurangzeb's destructive deeds. Then we asked painters from Rajasthan to reproduce in the ancient Mughal style some of the edicts: the destruction of Somnath temple; the trampling of Hindus protesting jaziya tax by Aurangzeb's elephants; or the order from Aurangzeb prohibiting Hindus to ride horses and palanquins; or the beheading of Teg Bahadur and Dara Shikoh.
People might say: 'OK, this is all true, Aurangzeb was indeed a monster, but why rake up the past, when we have tensions between Muslims and Hindus today?' There are two reasons for this exhibition. The first is that no nation can move forward unless its children are taught to look squarely at their own history, the good and the bad, the evil and the pure. The French, for instance, have many dark periods in their history, more recently some of the deeds they did during colonisation in North Africa or how they collaborated with the Nazis during the Second World War and handed over French Jews who died in concentration camps (the French are only now coming to terms with it).
The argument that looking at one's history will pit a community against the other does not hold either: French Catholics and Protestants, who share a very similar religion, fought each other bitterly. Catholics brutally murdered thousands of Protestants in the 18th century; yet today they live peacefully next to each other. France fought three wars with Germany in the last 150 years, yet they are great friends today.
Let Hindus and Muslims then come to terms with what happened under Aurangzeb, because Muslims suffered as much as Hindus. It was not only Shah Jahan or Dara Shikoh who were murdered, but also the forefathers of today's Indian Muslims who have been converted at 90 per cent. Aurangzeb was the Hitler, the asura of medieval India. No street is named after Hitler in the West, yet in New Delhi we have Aurangzeb Road, a constant reminder of the horrors Aurangzeb perpetrated against Indians, including his own people.
Finally, Aurangzeb is very relevant today because he thought that Sunni Islam was the purest form of his religion and he sought to impose it with ruthless efficiency -- even against those of his own faith, such as his brother. Aurangzeb clamped down on the more syncretic, more tolerant Islam, of the Sufi kind, which then existed in India. But he did not fully succeed. Four centuries later, is he going to have the last word? I remember, when I started covering Kashmir in the late '70s, that Islam had a much more open face. The Kashmir Muslim, who is also a descendant of converted Hindus, might have thought that Allah was the only true God, but he accepted his Kashmiri Pandit neighbour, went to his or her marriage, ate in his or her house and the Hindu in turn went to the mosque. Women used to walk with open faces, watch TV, films.
Then the shadow of Aurangzeb fell on Kashmir and the hardline Sunnis came from Pakistan and Afghanistan: cinemas were banned, the burqa imposed, 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits were chased out of Kashmir through violence and became refugees in their own land and the last Sufi shrine of Sharar-e-Sharif was burnt to the ground (I was there). Today the Shariat has been voted in Kashmir, a state of democratic, secular India, UP's Muslims have applauded, and the entire Indian media which went up in flames when the government wanted Vande Mataram to be sung, kept quiet. The spirit of Aurangzeb seems to triumph.
But what we need today in India -- and indeed in the world -- is a Dara Shikoh, who reintroduces an Islam which, while believing in the supremacy of its Prophet, not only accepts other faiths, but is also able to see the good in each religion, study them, maybe create a synthesis. Islam needs to adapt its scriptures which were created nearly 15 centuries ago for the people and customs of these times, but which are not necessarily relevant in some of their injunctions today. Kabir, Dara Shikoh and some of the Sufi saints attempted this task, but failed. Aurangzeb knew what he was doing when he had his own brother beheaded. And we know what we are saying when we say that this exhibition is very relevant to today's India.
May the Spirit of Dara Shikoh come back to India and bring back Islam to a more tolerant human face.Francois Gautier
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THE GREAT EMPEROR ''AURANGZEB''by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:34 PM Hide repliesHide-->
Fortunately, in recent years quite a few Hindu historians have come out in the open disputing those allegations. For example, historian Babu Nagendranath Banerjee rejected the accusation of forced conversion of Hindus by Muslim rulers by stating that if that was their intention then in India today there would not be nearly four times as many Hindus compared to Muslims, despite the fact that Muslims had ruled for nearly a thousand years. Banerjee challenged the Hindu hypothesis that Aurangzeb was anti-Hindu by reasoning that if the latter were truly guilty of such bigotry, how could he appoint a Hindu as his military commander-in-chief? Surely, he could have afforded to appoint a competent Muslim general in that position. Banerjee further stated: "No one should accuse Aurangzeb of being communal minded. In his administration, the state policy was formulated by Hindus. Two Hindus held the highest position in the State Treasury. Some prejudiced Muslims even questioned the merit of his decision to appoint non-Muslims to such high offices. The Emperor refuted that by stating that he had been following the dictates of the Shariah (Islamic Law) which demands appointing right persons in right positions." During Aurangzeb's long reign of fifty years, many Hindus, notably Jaswant Singh, Raja Rajrup, Kabir Singh, Arghanath Singh, Prem Dev Singh, Dilip Roy, and Rasik Lal Crory, held very high administrative positions. Two of the highest ranked generals in Aurangzeb's administration, Jaswant Singh and Jaya Singh, were Hindus. Other notable Hindu generals who commanded a garrison of two to five thousand soldiers were Raja Vim Singh of Udaypur, Indra Singh, Achalaji and Arjuji. One wonders if Aurangzeb was hostile to Hindus, why would he position all these Hindus to high positions of authority, especially in the military, who could have mutinied against him and removed him from his throne? Forward Report abuse
THE GREAT EMPEROR ''AURANGZEB''by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:33 PM Hide repliesHide-->
Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb: Bad Ruler or Bad History? By Dr. Habib Siddiqui Posted: 9 Jamad-ul-awwal 1427, 5 June 2006 Of all the Muslim rulers who ruled vast territories of India from 712 to 1857 CE, probably no one has received as much condemnation from Western and Hindu writers as Aurangzeb. He has been castigated as a religious Muslim who was anti-Hindu, who taxed them, who tried to convert them, who discriminated against them in awarding high administrative positions, and who interfered in their religious matters. This view has been heavily promoted in the government approved textbooks in schools and colleges across post-partition India (i.e., after 1947). These are fabrications against one of the best rulers of India who was pious, scholarly, saintly, un-biased, liberal, magnanimous, tolerant, competent, and far-sighted Forward Report abuse
WE ARE ALL COUSINSby Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:32 PM Hide repliesHide-->
RAFI IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AS PER THE ISLAMIC BELIEF "EVERY HUMAN BEING BORNED AS MUSLIM". THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT CHANGED THEM TO THD DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECT. I AM PROUD SAY NOT ONLY MY, BROTHERS KALYAN MITRA, CHATANYA KUMAR AND OTHERS' ANCESTORS WERE MUSLIM. WE ARE ALL COUSINS. Forward Report abuse
RE:WE ARE ALL COUSINSby pranat on Mar 17, 2007 06:03 PMcan we say that we are all born to serve humanity before religion consumes us Forward Report abuse
Reply to Mr. Rama Anand Rao - This is the few sayings of books of your culture. which is practised mostly.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:44 PM Hide repliesHide-->
Read few for your reading. Lust, anger, greed, pride etc., constitute the most powerful army of Ignorance. But among them all the fiercest and the most troublesome is that incarnation of Maya called woman. Yudhishthira said: O best of Bharatas, I wish to hear thee discourse on the disposition of women. Women are said to be the root of all evil. They are all regarded as exceedingly frail. There is nothing else that is more sinful than women. Verily, women are the root of all faults. That is certainly known to thee, O Narada! Women, even when possessed of husbands having fame and wealth, of handsome features and completely obedient to them, are prepared to disregard them if they get the opportunity. Listen, O sage: the Puranas, the Vedas and the saints declare that woman is like the vernal season to the forest of ignorance. Nay, like the hot season she dries up all the ponds and lakes of Japa (repetition of mantras or the Lord%u2019s name), austerity and religious observances. Again, lust, anger, pride, and jealousy are so many frogs as it were; like the rainy season woman is the only agency that gladdens them all Ayodhya Kanda, 39-21, 39-23 "It is also characteristic of faithless women to lead a false life, do acts unworthy of them, possess a heart ever unfathomable, be inclined to do sinful acts and in a trice cease to be affectionate." Aranya Kanda, 45.29 "It is the nature of women all over the world to be vicious, fickle, and sharp-tongued and to sow seeds of dissension A true wife thinks not of God when she rises in the morning. She offers her worship to the husband and that is enough. Even the clouds will obey and pour the rain at her command. Ansuya (Rishi Atri's wife) said to Sita: "A woman is impure by her very birth; but she attains a happy state by serving her lord (husband)". Fom the Bhagavad Gita, Ch.9, Verse 32: "For, taking refuge in Me, they also who, O Arjuna, may be of sinful birth--women, vaisyas as well as sudras--attain the Supreme Goal." Commentary by Swami Shivananda, Rishikesh: "........Women and Sudras are debarred by social rules from the study of the Vedas. ...." The practice still popular that when woman in Mensuration does not allow to enter inside home, stay aloof, do not touch to eating utensils, can not wear good clothes. The woman her husband died in the young age does not allow to marry, does not allow to wear colourful clothes and wearing jewellary. these are the common practices. Sati as per your holy books still valid. Even India many times it was forcefully practiced. Woman and Islam I posted already article about. Go check and compare and then tell. What is the truth. You want more blockbusters tell me. Forward Report abuse
RE:Reply to Mr. Rama Anand Rao - This is the few sayings of books of your culture. which is practised mostly.by pranat on Mar 17, 2007 05:09 PMShri. Rafiuddin farooqui from Hindustan, Every religion has its share of old outdated rituals and practices that dont hold any place now. These practices include say beating your self and bleeding yourself on moharram, treating women as un-equal and not allowing them to work, child marriage, social inequality and perhaps all the things that you have mentioned. So to an extent these are present in all religions. But progressive religions move ahead and assimilate things that are good and reject things that are bad. I dont see this is Islamic countries barring UAE/Bahrain etc. I see that radical elements in Islam become stronger than the state and all that they like is radical Islam and sharia law. Education , hospitals, development all can do to the dogs then. All women can just stay at home and serve their lords and the lords( husbands) can go ahead tortting their AK-47/hand held granades and start coverting/killing kafirs/shia/sunni/journalists/americans/jews/cristians/burning libraries. I dont think that you and your family want to live in that society governed by the strict interpretation of the sharia laws ( as done by Taliban)..do you? I am sure you dont, i would like to hear you views. Forward Report abuse
Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:16 PM Hide repliesHide-->
The poor Hindus doesnt know what their Culture said. quote The woman in the West is dazzled by the glamorous rush and speed of the modern age. She does not like to do her household duties. You can find her now in the house of parliament or at the typewriter. She is a telephone operator, a pilot, a film star and a shop assistant. She compliments herself in the thought that she is sharing and lessening the work of man. She vies with him in his field and tries to oust and replace him. She has asserted her rights and broken the four walls of her home. She works in the war zones and industries. She thinks that she lives a glorious life but it is not so. She is not really peaceful and happy. Women can no more do the work of men in the world than men can do that of women. %u2026 If they withdraw from their homes, the result will be disastrous. There will be subversion of domestic discipline and family order, and social decay will set in. Children will grow up uneducated and sorely neglected. Unquote What I found on the Net Educated illeterate. Taleem hasil karke bhi Jahel raha Nadan ko ulta palta to bhi nadan raha. Forward Report abuse
RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 04:23 PMwith more guys like you, women will realize that their real threat is from Islam who wish to limit their presence to kitchen and bedroom. I hope the Burkha dutts and Arundhati Roys are listening. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:56 PMHi Chaitanya I love you are again. We never against women to get knowledge and become super human but with modesty and chastity. We do not want women to become flesh Market. Our prophet said the getting of the education is the right of men and woman. They must get education. This is todays need. But Moral values should be maintain. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Secular Indian on Mar 17, 2007 05:09 PMIs that why in Islam it's OK for the men to rape their female slaves Forward Report abuse
RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by KALYAN MITRA on Mar 17, 2007 04:25 PMAre you sure your ancestors are not Hindus? Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:51 PMIslam teaches that every born in fitra means born Muslims and we adopt what ever around us. I and you born also Muslims but due you culture you are Hindu. My parents practicing Islam so I am Muslims. My ancestors were Originally Muslims but they adopted Hinduism, Chirtianity, Judaism, Jainism, Budhism but when they get the message of Islam. READ AND UNDERSTAND, As they are right minded, with good science, intelligent they embrass Islam. Wish you good luck. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Secular Indian on Mar 17, 2007 05:10 PMWe are all born as humans devoid of any religion. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:29 PMRAFI IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AS PER THE ISLAMIC BELIEF "EVERY HUMAN BEING BORNED AS MUSLIM". THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT CHANGED THEM TO THD DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECT. I AM PROUD SAY NOT ONLY MY, BROTHERS KALYAN MITRA, CHATANYA KUMAR AND OTHERS' ANCESTORS WERE MUSLIM. WE ARE ALL COUSINS. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by CG NAIR on Mar 17, 2007 06:05 PMIslam religion was established about 1400 years back. How could then "every human being born (there is no word like "borned" in English) as Muslim? Was there no human race before the advent of the Prophet? I would suggest my friends of all religions to read the free e-book "The Necessity of Atheism" by Dr. D.M. Brooks available on the site of Project Gutenberg. Also read the book God, Demon and Spirits by the late Dr. Abraham Kovoor (still not available freely)to put an end to their misplaced belief of superiority of one religion or the other.Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by on Mar 17, 2007 05:26 PMMr. Farooqui, I have heard such great things about Islam from a friend of mine. But what I never had any answer was that 'what % of Muslims are true Muslims'? It seemed it is negligible, given the total darkness prevailing in Musilm Socities worldover inspite of such great words of Shariat etc etc. Question is then: what is the effectiveness of such teachings and why would one care to accept these words as living standards of Islam? If the colossal Majority of Muslims do not care about fine teachings of Shariat Koran, then why would you ask the Kafers to undetstand the Muslim socitey in terms of those books? Funny, isn' it? Well, the answer is that it is pure baloney. The nice words of Sharit and Koran are just a cover for the darker side of the teachings. Forward Report abuse
Why such hypocracyby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 03:37 PM Hide repliesHide-->
Reply to Mr. Fayyaz A against his message posted on Mar 17, 2007 11:09 AM under heading HINDU MUSLIM I indeed aghast for his small posting, wherein he has advised to avoid hatred. Though I do not know to whom he has addressed, and what for he has posted but I bow to his wishes and simultaneously I wish, such wishes should have been of all, but unfortunately it is not like that. I do not carry any prejudice, so I feel that all the readers are educated and intelligent, and probably are the regular visitors to Rediff. Recently, one gentleman, Shahalam had posted a long list on Mar 04, 2007 (under the news - UK Muslims converting our girls: Hindus %u2013 I think that the news has been deleted now), where the marriages or relationship were of inter-religion in nature i.e. Hindu-Muslim. The gentleman had selected very carefully and quite mischievously the name of those couple only where the males were Muslims and females were Hindu and mostly they were married and off-course few of them have separated / divorced. He used the relationship and marriage as USED and divorced / separated as ABUSED / DUMPED. Now all were celebrated couples, have their public life, normally belonged to upper classes and not at all fundamentalists. Even an ordinary person could well understand those are / were a relationship, continuing or broken, but those were relationship and none of them even thought that those were the case of USE, ABUSED or DUMPED. He also mentioned - Muslims always have this ability to target Gullible Hindu girls whether in India or UK. It is quite surprising that none of the Muslim readers had come to condemn the act such stupidity i.e. message posting. I do not know what the writer wanted to convey but he had depicted his insanity i.e. teaching of hatred and not coming forward by any Muslim reader, have shown that they had endorsed the writer%u2019s opinion or in other word they have endorsed and supported the act of hatred, and it is the teaching of Islam. If I have read that message, I am sure millions of readers must have read too and quite a number of people / organization might be planning to target or retaliate i.e. USED, ABUSED or DUMPED, the act probably nobody have thought even that the marriage is synonymous to these. What a mentality and what a support from their community. Had anything thought the consequence? I wonder if the Muslims females also in that way i.e. relationship is USE, ABUSE or DUMP. I am sure that many of my Muslims sisters must have selected their partners from other religion, and few might be planning to do so, and in future also some would do so. What a definition of relationship, USE, ABUSE and DUMP. Now I take the second case, under this article where Mr Mohammed Ahmed have been continuously justifying the act of Jihad, murder etc. should continue and he has given series of illogical reasons, and endorsed that the killing of innocent people, which he decides as devils and the murderer has right to do or in other word Jihad is must act for Muslims. It is the killer who would decide that who should be murdered and compared the act with court judgment where the judge gives the verdict for hanging. Apart from this he has comparison of capitalism vs communism etc. etc. In nutshell he has tried to spread a message that whoever does not believe in Islam should be ready to face the Jihad, as Islam wants to control the whole world. The readers must read the all message of Mr Mohammed Ahmed and my replies. I wonder if some extremists from other group decides that the writer is curse for humanity, which actually he is, and he must be eliminated then what would happen. In my all the message, I have tried to bring the facts and ignoring them is bringing to havoc to my Muslim brothers and all those are based on the discussion with educated Muslim (but absolutely not fundamentalists) people and with examples. I have really felt the pain among few. I strongly feel that the normal people is hardly interested with the religion of anyone, as long it is not affecting their personal life and it is the terrorism which is making the Muslims vulnerable. I strongly feel all Muslims are not terrorists; there are only few percentage. But it is also sure that these few percentages get full co-operation, be it hiding the information about the terrorists, be providing the shelter, be providing the logistics or any other support, otherwise act never be spread and it is just because of same. Now if the ISLAM teaches not to support bad acts and still they are getting the support of terrorism or Jihad, then people has to think about the teaching. The writer of message against which I am replying, must have not come to condemn any act, be it against the terrorism, be it against such nuisances message posting, be it against such religious leaders who bashes their celebrity sisters like Sania Mirza, Shabana Azmi etc. I am not spending my time to criticize anyone rather writing as their well-wisher and for my Muslim friends, who though openly accepts such crude fundamentalism and wants to break the shackle, practice humanism and wants to wash such dirty stigma which raises eyebrows of others. In other they want to keep alive the name of ISLAM as religion for humanity, the biggest religion of the world, mother of all religion and much bigger than ISLAM. I am sure all the readers (including Muslims, I hope majority are not fundamentalist) would understand my good intention. So far my background is concerned, I brought up in liberal, educated, cosmopolitan society, where the case, creed and religion carried hardly any meaning. I enjoy the relationship of all the community including Muslims and have lots of Muslim female friends also, but I enjoy their relationship, a relationship which is true in real sense, a relationship of humanism, not the kind USE, ABUSE and DUMP. The awareness among the Muslim female of very high level (may they because they educated), and they have deep pain about their social condition, they on and often discussed that the lack of education in their community (which is unfortunately promoted by their own community people, and wants to keep under shackle for their vested interest). It is the message of those my sister like friends that Muslim female has to fight against such evils and acquire modern education, this is the only salvage. Jai Hind An Indian Forward Report abuse
UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby jeremy williams on Mar 17, 2007 02:14 PM Hide repliesHide-->
THE GUJARAT POGROM INITIATED BY THE RULING BJP GOVT., THE RAPING AND MURDER OF CHRISTIAN NUNS & PRIESTS BY HINDUTVA FORCES,THE MURDER OF GRAHAM STAINES AND HIS LITTLE CHILDREN IN ORISSA BY DARA SINGH ,A MEMBER OF HINDUTVA BRIGADE,THE CENTURIES OLD DISCRIMINATION OF THE DRAVIDIC NATIVES AND TRIBALS OF INDIA IN THE NAME OF CASTE SYSTEM.THESE ARE SOME OF THE HARSH TRUTHS MR GAUTIER WOULD LIKE US TO PRETEND DO NOT EXIST IN CURRENT DAY INDIAN SOCIETY.CRY MY BELOVED INDIA.CRY Forward Report abuse
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RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 02:42 PM"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942) Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 02:50 PMChristianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure?...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith.-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)More such quotes from Hitler in praise of Church from his Mein Kampf: http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby bharatiya on Mar 17, 2007 02:44 PMThe large scale demolition of Hindu temples by the portugese in Goa & by Muslims in the rest of India, the forced conversions, murder, rape & loot centuries after centuries cannot be forgotten. If you add up all the violent acts of Hindus in the entire history it will not even total to 6 months (& that too has always been as a reaction to something nasty you guys have done) whereas for Muslims & Christians it has been an everyday way of life for many centuries. Your b@lsh@% religions offer incentives like virgins & rivers of wine to lure you into crimes against humanity. You are agents of Satan on earth. It is a well known trick of the Satan that he pretends to be a devote Christian & shows his true colors when exposed. Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:02 PMAtrocities on Native people:Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion."While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ."In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead.The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous."The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive."Or, on another occasion:"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs."The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next."Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida)."When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."More Christian attricities(incomplete list):http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:09 PMyour list is really small Jeremy. Hindus and their so called "atrocities"(which even you need to exaggerate and concote with lies) are nothing before whatever happened in the name of Christ. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:17 PMall you christians do is point at the Hindu caste system and the discrimination in it while you hide the atrocities of Church that will bewilder the devil and satan. As if the caste system is only followed by Hindus and rest are egalitarian. What happened to the discrimination between ruling class, working class...bourgeois , proletariat. Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby pranat on Mar 17, 2007 03:23 PMAny progressive developing diverse country will have its share of problems in creating equitable distribution of wealth and social equaity that started in the last 3/4 centuries will hopefully be completed in this century. But clearly we neither did nor will like to go the way of Aurangzeb/Osama Bin Ladin (a radical Muslim) or lead a crusade against non cristin religions or have an Adolf Hitler here. These people wanted to kill humanity in millions. These were progroms to eliminate/annihilate other religions. Genocide directed at completely eliminating weaker minorities. I am happy that in Hindu Majority India, crimes of this horric nature have neither happened nor will happen. Thank the Hindu majority for this who are tolerant and stop crying about RSS/BJP at every given opportunity. Hindus now, in their own country dont even have a right to stop Islamic fundamentalism and cristian conversion... mostly encouraged by the outside powers and money. Forward Report abuse
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Why such acrimonious thinking Mr. Mohammed Ahmedby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 11:52 AM Hide repliesHide-->
A fresh reply to mohammed ahmed on Mar 16, 2007 04:03 PM [RE:Why the Afghanistan or any other countries / territories are of / for Muslims] against his few queries: Your comments - Islam is global, from the beginning, we want Islam in the whole world. My reply - What is meaning of global (tell me the % of population, % of acceptance of willingness), what is meaning of beginning (how old it is, tell me about your ancestral background, who they were, if you abuse to your own ancestors whose blessings you are, whose blood you carry, then what is impression you are spreading) and what is meaning of, we want ISLAM (meaning peace and justice) in the whole world, who cares what you want you have right to accept anything why should I captivate myself or others to illiteracy , unscrupulous religious leaders. Even your thinking is dirty that you want others should follow it and simultaneously you are claming ISLAM (meaning peace and justice), if you preach ISLAM and meaning is it, how dare you can think about democratic rights of others or in the word you yourself is abusing and pitting to ISLAM. This is the biggest problem with you fundamentalist; you dare to think the others should follow you. Gentleman, people follow a path as per their wish, considering its good and evil, where the very basic nature of Islam (or what it has been propagated by your so called religious leaders) is barbaric and forced. You people never come to rescue your own sister like Sania Mirza, when she is bashed by your religious leaders, you never utter single word about our great H.E. President APJ Abdul Kalam that when your people say that he is not Muslims and he is puppet etc. etc. since he practices the humanism not fundamentalism and now it is barbaric thinking that you want ISLAM (meaning peace and justice) in the whole world, what a rotten thinking. Gentleman go and cleanse you mind, you have right to thin about you but you should not dare to think about others, as they also have the same right and they are more intelligent than you as they do not mortgage their mind and soul to someone that too illiterate religious leaders. Your comment - we preach everywhere about the Creator, good things of life, good living, cooperation, charity, meditation, circumcision, burial of dead bodies with dignity. My reply %u2013 By the way, who decides which is good and which is bad? How dare you can think about the whole world and their thinking? Do you feel yourself that you are capable to do so or you are also life self-styled prophet, who can decide the fate of whole world. I think I need to tell that in non of the Gulf country where Muslims are in population, they have declared it as Muslim country (forget about the secularism), no democracy is there, literacy rate is dismally poor, even the person hold some qualification (not education) they are captive to illiterate religious leaders, they have fear to use their own brain (always use to quote misinterpretations or interpretations of some phrases of some books / preaches, which they themselves do not know what they are uttering), and here in India, they live in India, eat in India, drink in India, inhale in India but they are loyal to Arab countries or Pakistan and they declare it proudly. By the way can you tell me what should I learn %u2013 Jihad, killing of innocent people, unpatriotic acts, illiteracy, kept myself under the captivity of someone etc. etc. You should think about yourself and let other think about themselves. You can think that the day may come when other people like you would start thinking about their own Jihad, as you have right to decide to kill someone, the others may have right to kill you and they would justify your killing because of rotten thinking. Why do you want bring the hell for your brothers and sisters? Have you not seen the repercussion of Godhra Train Carnegie? I do not know whether the real culprita got any punishment or not but innocent people were killed who had nothing to do with Godhra incident. An elderly person was killed who was not related to Godhra incident, but suffered only because the people of his age did not teach their younger generation about the good, bad and their consequences. Gentleman, do not spread hatred, rather live peacefully and allow others to leave peacefully. This is the essence of Humanism, the biggest religion in the world and much bigger than your ISLAM. I pray to God (or your Allah) to cleanse your mind and pour some good thinking on you. An Indian Forward Report abuse
hindu muslimby Fayyaz A on Mar 17, 2007 11:09 AM Hide repliesHide-->
pls try to avoid to start the topics which increases the hate. kindly stop the topic, you are not doing the good .past is good ok but when it is bad then why are you opening it to initiate hate and mental block. an Indian Muslim Forward Report abuse
RE:hindu muslimby KALYAN MITRA on Mar 17, 2007 04:28 PMI do agree with you...forget past...we should start a fresh... Forward Report abuse
Read and replyby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 10:36 AM Hide repliesHide-->
Reply to mohammed ahmed on Mar 16, 2007 04:03 PM [RE:Why the Afghanistan or any other countries / territories are of / for Muslims] Dear Mohammed Ahmed I could not understand the reason for your unusual anger as I had not target you but at the same time if you say that who told so for Muslim lands, you may go through several postings, under several articles, where your so fundamentalists brothers have written. At present I do not have the details, I am sure even under this article somewhere the people have justified Jihad for Israel occupied area, Iraq, Afghanistan, J&K etc. etc. claiming that there are fighting to liberate their motherland. Otherwise can you justify the meaning of Jihad and killing the innocent people, including children, woman and elderly people, only because you have gun in your hand and they are soft targets. Forget about the world history, just refer back the invasion of Islamic terrorists in this country, you may call it 500 years back or 1000 years back. Can you justify the forced conversion? Can you refuse the majority population is of forced conversion (there are 99.99% chances that your ancestors have also been forced, have you ever tried to go back to your own ancestors, when I telling this I strongly feel that you are from Indian origin), you can definitely think about your own ancestors, I repeat your own ancestors including female members and their agony when they were forced for conversion and other humiliation your female family ancestors had faced at that time (I could your understand what I want to say) . I am giving few links which are small example of barbaric invasion: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A5220 http://www.stephen-knapp.com/an_architect_looks_at_the_taj_mahal_legend.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/badshahnama.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/letter_of_aurangzeb.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/question_of_the_taj_mahal.htm My brother my intention is not to annoy you rather to request just to open your own eyes, open your own brain, the precious gift of Almighty (the supreme power, you may call as ALLAH, or whatever suits you), release yourself from the captivation of fundamentalist cages. I am pasting a message which I had replied to someone which can open your eyes and change your mind and attitude that I am new to this discussion. In this context I would like to confirm that I have discussed these subject to my several Muslim friends & colleagues (educated, not fundamentalists, who bow to the reality not the baseless teaching of so called leaders. I hope you are also an educated person. I would request you to kindly go through the history (I am not recommending any rather advise you to go to the reputed authors and publishers (including Muslims authors) and judge yourself, again only after releasing yourself from the cages of fundamentalism Message No. 1 Dear Musfar Ahmed and all the people of community who are spreading the hatred Since all the people are more or more than average intelligent so I hope you are also, you can definitely think that who were you ancestors, whose son / daughters you are. You can change your religion, your coming generations can convert them to any religion (by force, by lure or otherwise), but you can never change your ancestors, your background, your roots etc. So far the religions are concerned, it has been started by someone (here the Hindu religion is the only natural religion, adopted from the lifestyle of this country and has not initiated and propagated by anyone). Whatever may be the reason (mostly forced at that time) for conversion to Islam, but it is certain that the root of 99% is from our great India only. You may go through (if you can) the back history of your own family and then only you can understand the agony and pain of your ancestors (especially the ladies), if you have your ancestral background. Go to history, you can definitely find and if you have the courage go to your own roots (after all your carry blood your own ancestors, I repeat, blood of your ancestors). I could not understand the meaning of %u2018WE%u2019, is it MUSLIM or INDIAN, I can safely presume that it is as MUSLIM and if it so then also the Muslims are not in majority within the pre-British border, but again I am not like you who is spreading against their own ancestors (your forefathers) or anyone. I also could not understand what is the meaning of we would be in majority. My great country India has record or real democracy (not like other Gulf-countries), our majority people (you can call them Hindu) has tolerance to promote non-Hindu leaders (including Muslims), promote them on the basis of their talent (not on the basis of their religion, present PM and President is example, though there are other series of examples available), our majority cheers the success of any person irrespective of his / her religion (example, Sania Mirza, our people have never bashed or abused her, though there are series of example about her clothing etc. etc. by so called Mulls / Maulvis / Muftis but the majority of the Muslims never came to support her and condemn so called religious leaders, though the truth is this that she is from you community and your sisters. Can you tell any other country where majority has accepted the minority leadership? Even in sports such dirty and disgraced religious fanaticism can be seen, a classic example is conversion of Christian %u2018Yousuf Yohana%u2019 to Muslim %u2018Mohd Yousuf%u2019 (Pakistan Cricket Team), whatever reason could be given i.e. acceptance to forced conversion to lure conversion etc. but the truth is he has been motivated to convert to Islam (now one can think about his family and relatives and why the Govt do not ban such type of nuisances, because such acts are state sponsored). What force a person to mortgage their brain and soul to so call filthy religious leaders? Why a person do not use his or her brain, a gift or nature / almighty of all (say God, Allhah etc,) and follow the misinterpretations (or interpretations) of their so called religious books. Are the misinterpretations or interpretations of so-called religious books provide better insight than the gift of Almighty (God or Allah)? Are you not insulting the Almighty (God or Allah) by doing so? Why an educated person does not take their own judicious decision and depend on the so called religious leaders? Any person (irrespective of any particular religion) can think judiciously and find the reason of vulnerability, religious fanaticism and terrorism. An Indian Message no. 2 Reply to dear Essa Ismail Sait, message posted on March 12, 2007 01:39 PM I the outset I would like to make it clear that my intention is not to hurt anyone. In my personal life I had discussed the matter with many of my Muslim friends and they have ultimately agreed the truth (only because they were educated, not fanatic by heart). I received many lessons from father of one of senior (an it was most fortunate that the he was Muslim but highly educated but not only degree holder qualified, the elderly gentleman was Bar-at-Law, his son i.e. my senior was a Management Graduate and, and elderly gentleman%u2019s daughter were also highly educated which are very rare in Muslim community and almost all the family were settled in London and ultimately my senior had also resigned with an intention to settle there. I was too young at that time may be 20 years back when the elderly gentleman told me that my community has become too vulnerable as they have fallen under the trap of unscrupulous political and religious leaders who are exploiting the sentiments of our youth for their dirty interest, be it religious or political and the most dangerous part is, that our youth our becoming religious fanatic and major reason is their emotion because of illiteracy. These unscrupulous political and religious leaders would damage our community to irreparable extent. Now after such long years I salute to that elderly person though he is no more know, for his vision and who taught me the meaning of philosophy in life i.e. open your eyes, see clearly, analyse properly, never follow what my leaders have told or what is written here or there and act accordingly. Always follow the path of humanity, not of any community, be true to yourself and almighty.) Now I come to your objection and request, the meaning of natural religion, it means it has not been initiated and propagated by anyone, so it does not have any such restriction which tell that one should be bound within these rules. With apology I would like to mention that you could not dare to accept the truth (though it hardly makes any difference, because truth would remain the truth whether you accept it or not) that Indian Muslims carry the Indian background, the background of this soil only. I think I need not to explain further. It seems that you are an educated person and that is why you have classified the modes of conversion. I need not to explain you as to what method of conversion was adopted at that time, though you are not responsible for that but you would be definitely responsible for your ignorance and not accepting the truth. I have no intention that you should accept the truth in this forum. Generally all the people are blessed with intelligent brain, so are you also. You go through the history (if possible, go to your own family background, under which circumstances they were converted, though it is practically not possible) and you would find that the comparison of farmer or criminal is meaningless as I had never mention this. I do agree that the birth of Islam and entry (rather invasion) in this country was much earlier than Moghul era. As per my history knowledge, it was sometime 612 AD from where the real spread of Islam started and if my memory is correct then it is around 570 AD when Prophet Mohd born, again the historians are also not unanimous about the birth year. But the truth is this that Akbar was the only secular emperor, who had started real secular religion called DIN-E-ILLAHI, but today nobody remembers even. The profile of rest of the muslim emperors are quite dubious, barring Bahadur Shah Zafar, but he did not have the leadership quality, though he was not religious fanatic. You have right to believe anything that you are generation of Adam and Eve so is I and all, but what I wanted to tell that what your ancestors were in between. Again my intention is not to hurt anyone. You have avoided the episode of anger and agony of your ancestors; again you have hundred and thousands reasons behind it. I once again reiterate that none of the conversion of that time was of category 3, i.e. Converting by understanding the religion as the people of that era were very innocent and had deep faith in their own custom, the custom they inherited / borrowed, so your attempt to paste category 3 at that circumstances is totally meaningless / irrelevant and so your justification in subsequent paragraph. So far the case of Mohd Yousuf is concerned, it is an example only as the forced conversion can be from gunpoint to harassment to creating the situation etc. etc. I do not know whether you are pro-Pakistan or not, but you can definitely go through the census of Pakistan from 1947 to last and can judge yourself about the decline of other religion people in that country. I had raised many other facts also and you must have read those. I could understand as to why you could not gain courage to raise those, like about the acceptance of other leadership, about the democracy, about the secular nature of nation etc. etc. Can any Muslim country would allow any Hindu or any other religion people to lead them. My intention here is not to bash anyone rather tell them to see themselves with their own eyes, though I know it is useless. Recently I met with a Senior Executive of an Oil Company and was a Muslim. We were waiting in lounge and could spent time together. By sheer chancee the talk turned toward this hot topic and I could feel the deep pain in his face about the vulnerability of the community. He was worried about his teenage daughter and son, about their society as he told how difficult rather impossible go get flat / house in cosmopolitan society as the people of other community does not want mix-up for such bad names, what would happen about the life partners of their kids etc. etc. as the gentleman was not religious fanatic and he does not want to grow his children under such environment which is nowadays highly vulnerable and susceptible. Though it was a casual meeting, he was not open to me, but what I could understand that he would encourage his children to break the barbarian shackle during their college days in European or American countries. I could refresh my memories about the teachings of that elderly man. Though I personally feel that all the people are not bad and this is certain. But it is also certain that major cause of hatred is terrorism which can never prosper and flourish without local support, be it through network, shelter, communication, logistics etc. etc. You may not agree but it is truth, be it Godhra, be it Mumbai or be it Varanasi. At the end I thank you for your message, which atleast does not spread any hatred but simaltanously does not reflect broadminded view also which is the need of hours. I apologize for my little harsh language but I could not get any appropriate word also which can reflect my disagreement with you but again it is not with any wrong intention. I welcome my real Indian Muslim brothers and sisters to fight with evils, may be anyone, do not support to wrong doing, might have committed by your own brothers and then only you can win the trust of others, which is the essence of brotherhood and I hope of the Islam also. Jai Hind An Indian Forward Report abuse
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THE GREAT EMPEROR ''AURANGZEB''by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:34 PM Hide repliesHide-->
Fortunately, in recent years quite a few Hindu historians have come out in the open disputing those allegations. For example, historian Babu Nagendranath Banerjee rejected the accusation of forced conversion of Hindus by Muslim rulers by stating that if that was their intention then in India today there would not be nearly four times as many Hindus compared to Muslims, despite the fact that Muslims had ruled for nearly a thousand years. Banerjee challenged the Hindu hypothesis that Aurangzeb was anti-Hindu by reasoning that if the latter were truly guilty of such bigotry, how could he appoint a Hindu as his military commander-in-chief? Surely, he could have afforded to appoint a competent Muslim general in that position. Banerjee further stated: "No one should accuse Aurangzeb of being communal minded. In his administration, the state policy was formulated by Hindus. Two Hindus held the highest position in the State Treasury. Some prejudiced Muslims even questioned the merit of his decision to appoint non-Muslims to such high offices. The Emperor refuted that by stating that he had been following the dictates of the Shariah (Islamic Law) which demands appointing right persons in right positions." During Aurangzeb's long reign of fifty years, many Hindus, notably Jaswant Singh, Raja Rajrup, Kabir Singh, Arghanath Singh, Prem Dev Singh, Dilip Roy, and Rasik Lal Crory, held very high administrative positions. Two of the highest ranked generals in Aurangzeb's administration, Jaswant Singh and Jaya Singh, were Hindus. Other notable Hindu generals who commanded a garrison of two to five thousand soldiers were Raja Vim Singh of Udaypur, Indra Singh, Achalaji and Arjuji. One wonders if Aurangzeb was hostile to Hindus, why would he position all these Hindus to high positions of authority, especially in the military, who could have mutinied against him and removed him from his throne? Forward Report abuse
THE GREAT EMPEROR ''AURANGZEB''by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:33 PM Hide repliesHide-->
Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb: Bad Ruler or Bad History? By Dr. Habib Siddiqui Posted: 9 Jamad-ul-awwal 1427, 5 June 2006 Of all the Muslim rulers who ruled vast territories of India from 712 to 1857 CE, probably no one has received as much condemnation from Western and Hindu writers as Aurangzeb. He has been castigated as a religious Muslim who was anti-Hindu, who taxed them, who tried to convert them, who discriminated against them in awarding high administrative positions, and who interfered in their religious matters. This view has been heavily promoted in the government approved textbooks in schools and colleges across post-partition India (i.e., after 1947). These are fabrications against one of the best rulers of India who was pious, scholarly, saintly, un-biased, liberal, magnanimous, tolerant, competent, and far-sighted Forward Report abuse
WE ARE ALL COUSINSby Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:32 PM Hide repliesHide-->
RAFI IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AS PER THE ISLAMIC BELIEF "EVERY HUMAN BEING BORNED AS MUSLIM". THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT CHANGED THEM TO THD DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECT. I AM PROUD SAY NOT ONLY MY, BROTHERS KALYAN MITRA, CHATANYA KUMAR AND OTHERS' ANCESTORS WERE MUSLIM. WE ARE ALL COUSINS. Forward Report abuse
RE:WE ARE ALL COUSINSby pranat on Mar 17, 2007 06:03 PMcan we say that we are all born to serve humanity before religion consumes us Forward Report abuse
Reply to Mr. Rama Anand Rao - This is the few sayings of books of your culture. which is practised mostly.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:44 PM Hide repliesHide-->
Read few for your reading. Lust, anger, greed, pride etc., constitute the most powerful army of Ignorance. But among them all the fiercest and the most troublesome is that incarnation of Maya called woman. Yudhishthira said: O best of Bharatas, I wish to hear thee discourse on the disposition of women. Women are said to be the root of all evil. They are all regarded as exceedingly frail. There is nothing else that is more sinful than women. Verily, women are the root of all faults. That is certainly known to thee, O Narada! Women, even when possessed of husbands having fame and wealth, of handsome features and completely obedient to them, are prepared to disregard them if they get the opportunity. Listen, O sage: the Puranas, the Vedas and the saints declare that woman is like the vernal season to the forest of ignorance. Nay, like the hot season she dries up all the ponds and lakes of Japa (repetition of mantras or the Lord%u2019s name), austerity and religious observances. Again, lust, anger, pride, and jealousy are so many frogs as it were; like the rainy season woman is the only agency that gladdens them all Ayodhya Kanda, 39-21, 39-23 "It is also characteristic of faithless women to lead a false life, do acts unworthy of them, possess a heart ever unfathomable, be inclined to do sinful acts and in a trice cease to be affectionate." Aranya Kanda, 45.29 "It is the nature of women all over the world to be vicious, fickle, and sharp-tongued and to sow seeds of dissension A true wife thinks not of God when she rises in the morning. She offers her worship to the husband and that is enough. Even the clouds will obey and pour the rain at her command. Ansuya (Rishi Atri's wife) said to Sita: "A woman is impure by her very birth; but she attains a happy state by serving her lord (husband)". Fom the Bhagavad Gita, Ch.9, Verse 32: "For, taking refuge in Me, they also who, O Arjuna, may be of sinful birth--women, vaisyas as well as sudras--attain the Supreme Goal." Commentary by Swami Shivananda, Rishikesh: "........Women and Sudras are debarred by social rules from the study of the Vedas. ...." The practice still popular that when woman in Mensuration does not allow to enter inside home, stay aloof, do not touch to eating utensils, can not wear good clothes. The woman her husband died in the young age does not allow to marry, does not allow to wear colourful clothes and wearing jewellary. these are the common practices. Sati as per your holy books still valid. Even India many times it was forcefully practiced. Woman and Islam I posted already article about. Go check and compare and then tell. What is the truth. You want more blockbusters tell me. Forward Report abuse
RE:Reply to Mr. Rama Anand Rao - This is the few sayings of books of your culture. which is practised mostly.by pranat on Mar 17, 2007 05:09 PMShri. Rafiuddin farooqui from Hindustan, Every religion has its share of old outdated rituals and practices that dont hold any place now. These practices include say beating your self and bleeding yourself on moharram, treating women as un-equal and not allowing them to work, child marriage, social inequality and perhaps all the things that you have mentioned. So to an extent these are present in all religions. But progressive religions move ahead and assimilate things that are good and reject things that are bad. I dont see this is Islamic countries barring UAE/Bahrain etc. I see that radical elements in Islam become stronger than the state and all that they like is radical Islam and sharia law. Education , hospitals, development all can do to the dogs then. All women can just stay at home and serve their lords and the lords( husbands) can go ahead tortting their AK-47/hand held granades and start coverting/killing kafirs/shia/sunni/journalists/americans/jews/cristians/burning libraries. I dont think that you and your family want to live in that society governed by the strict interpretation of the sharia laws ( as done by Taliban)..do you? I am sure you dont, i would like to hear you views. Forward Report abuse
Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:16 PM Hide repliesHide-->
The poor Hindus doesnt know what their Culture said. quote The woman in the West is dazzled by the glamorous rush and speed of the modern age. She does not like to do her household duties. You can find her now in the house of parliament or at the typewriter. She is a telephone operator, a pilot, a film star and a shop assistant. She compliments herself in the thought that she is sharing and lessening the work of man. She vies with him in his field and tries to oust and replace him. She has asserted her rights and broken the four walls of her home. She works in the war zones and industries. She thinks that she lives a glorious life but it is not so. She is not really peaceful and happy. Women can no more do the work of men in the world than men can do that of women. %u2026 If they withdraw from their homes, the result will be disastrous. There will be subversion of domestic discipline and family order, and social decay will set in. Children will grow up uneducated and sorely neglected. Unquote What I found on the Net Educated illeterate. Taleem hasil karke bhi Jahel raha Nadan ko ulta palta to bhi nadan raha. Forward Report abuse
RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 04:23 PMwith more guys like you, women will realize that their real threat is from Islam who wish to limit their presence to kitchen and bedroom. I hope the Burkha dutts and Arundhati Roys are listening. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:56 PMHi Chaitanya I love you are again. We never against women to get knowledge and become super human but with modesty and chastity. We do not want women to become flesh Market. Our prophet said the getting of the education is the right of men and woman. They must get education. This is todays need. But Moral values should be maintain. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Secular Indian on Mar 17, 2007 05:09 PMIs that why in Islam it's OK for the men to rape their female slaves Forward Report abuse
RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by KALYAN MITRA on Mar 17, 2007 04:25 PMAre you sure your ancestors are not Hindus? Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by rafiuddin farooqui on Mar 17, 2007 04:51 PMIslam teaches that every born in fitra means born Muslims and we adopt what ever around us. I and you born also Muslims but due you culture you are Hindu. My parents practicing Islam so I am Muslims. My ancestors were Originally Muslims but they adopted Hinduism, Chirtianity, Judaism, Jainism, Budhism but when they get the message of Islam. READ AND UNDERSTAND, As they are right minded, with good science, intelligent they embrass Islam. Wish you good luck. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Secular Indian on Mar 17, 2007 05:10 PMWe are all born as humans devoid of any religion. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by Mike Gandhi on Mar 17, 2007 05:29 PMRAFI IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. AS PER THE ISLAMIC BELIEF "EVERY HUMAN BEING BORNED AS MUSLIM". THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT CHANGED THEM TO THD DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECT. I AM PROUD SAY NOT ONLY MY, BROTHERS KALYAN MITRA, CHATANYA KUMAR AND OTHERS' ANCESTORS WERE MUSLIM. WE ARE ALL COUSINS. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by CG NAIR on Mar 17, 2007 06:05 PMIslam religion was established about 1400 years back. How could then "every human being born (there is no word like "borned" in English) as Muslim? Was there no human race before the advent of the Prophet? I would suggest my friends of all religions to read the free e-book "The Necessity of Atheism" by Dr. D.M. Brooks available on the site of Project Gutenberg. Also read the book God, Demon and Spirits by the late Dr. Abraham Kovoor (still not available freely)to put an end to their misplaced belief of superiority of one religion or the other.Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:Hi I am here again few replies. Some people talk about Purdah. The veil and Modesty.by on Mar 17, 2007 05:26 PMMr. Farooqui, I have heard such great things about Islam from a friend of mine. But what I never had any answer was that 'what % of Muslims are true Muslims'? It seemed it is negligible, given the total darkness prevailing in Musilm Socities worldover inspite of such great words of Shariat etc etc. Question is then: what is the effectiveness of such teachings and why would one care to accept these words as living standards of Islam? If the colossal Majority of Muslims do not care about fine teachings of Shariat Koran, then why would you ask the Kafers to undetstand the Muslim socitey in terms of those books? Funny, isn' it? Well, the answer is that it is pure baloney. The nice words of Sharit and Koran are just a cover for the darker side of the teachings. Forward Report abuse
Why such hypocracyby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 03:37 PM Hide repliesHide-->
Reply to Mr. Fayyaz A against his message posted on Mar 17, 2007 11:09 AM under heading HINDU MUSLIM I indeed aghast for his small posting, wherein he has advised to avoid hatred. Though I do not know to whom he has addressed, and what for he has posted but I bow to his wishes and simultaneously I wish, such wishes should have been of all, but unfortunately it is not like that. I do not carry any prejudice, so I feel that all the readers are educated and intelligent, and probably are the regular visitors to Rediff. Recently, one gentleman, Shahalam had posted a long list on Mar 04, 2007 (under the news - UK Muslims converting our girls: Hindus %u2013 I think that the news has been deleted now), where the marriages or relationship were of inter-religion in nature i.e. Hindu-Muslim. The gentleman had selected very carefully and quite mischievously the name of those couple only where the males were Muslims and females were Hindu and mostly they were married and off-course few of them have separated / divorced. He used the relationship and marriage as USED and divorced / separated as ABUSED / DUMPED. Now all were celebrated couples, have their public life, normally belonged to upper classes and not at all fundamentalists. Even an ordinary person could well understand those are / were a relationship, continuing or broken, but those were relationship and none of them even thought that those were the case of USE, ABUSED or DUMPED. He also mentioned - Muslims always have this ability to target Gullible Hindu girls whether in India or UK. It is quite surprising that none of the Muslim readers had come to condemn the act such stupidity i.e. message posting. I do not know what the writer wanted to convey but he had depicted his insanity i.e. teaching of hatred and not coming forward by any Muslim reader, have shown that they had endorsed the writer%u2019s opinion or in other word they have endorsed and supported the act of hatred, and it is the teaching of Islam. If I have read that message, I am sure millions of readers must have read too and quite a number of people / organization might be planning to target or retaliate i.e. USED, ABUSED or DUMPED, the act probably nobody have thought even that the marriage is synonymous to these. What a mentality and what a support from their community. Had anything thought the consequence? I wonder if the Muslims females also in that way i.e. relationship is USE, ABUSE or DUMP. I am sure that many of my Muslims sisters must have selected their partners from other religion, and few might be planning to do so, and in future also some would do so. What a definition of relationship, USE, ABUSE and DUMP. Now I take the second case, under this article where Mr Mohammed Ahmed have been continuously justifying the act of Jihad, murder etc. should continue and he has given series of illogical reasons, and endorsed that the killing of innocent people, which he decides as devils and the murderer has right to do or in other word Jihad is must act for Muslims. It is the killer who would decide that who should be murdered and compared the act with court judgment where the judge gives the verdict for hanging. Apart from this he has comparison of capitalism vs communism etc. etc. In nutshell he has tried to spread a message that whoever does not believe in Islam should be ready to face the Jihad, as Islam wants to control the whole world. The readers must read the all message of Mr Mohammed Ahmed and my replies. I wonder if some extremists from other group decides that the writer is curse for humanity, which actually he is, and he must be eliminated then what would happen. In my all the message, I have tried to bring the facts and ignoring them is bringing to havoc to my Muslim brothers and all those are based on the discussion with educated Muslim (but absolutely not fundamentalists) people and with examples. I have really felt the pain among few. I strongly feel that the normal people is hardly interested with the religion of anyone, as long it is not affecting their personal life and it is the terrorism which is making the Muslims vulnerable. I strongly feel all Muslims are not terrorists; there are only few percentage. But it is also sure that these few percentages get full co-operation, be it hiding the information about the terrorists, be providing the shelter, be providing the logistics or any other support, otherwise act never be spread and it is just because of same. Now if the ISLAM teaches not to support bad acts and still they are getting the support of terrorism or Jihad, then people has to think about the teaching. The writer of message against which I am replying, must have not come to condemn any act, be it against the terrorism, be it against such nuisances message posting, be it against such religious leaders who bashes their celebrity sisters like Sania Mirza, Shabana Azmi etc. I am not spending my time to criticize anyone rather writing as their well-wisher and for my Muslim friends, who though openly accepts such crude fundamentalism and wants to break the shackle, practice humanism and wants to wash such dirty stigma which raises eyebrows of others. In other they want to keep alive the name of ISLAM as religion for humanity, the biggest religion of the world, mother of all religion and much bigger than ISLAM. I am sure all the readers (including Muslims, I hope majority are not fundamentalist) would understand my good intention. So far my background is concerned, I brought up in liberal, educated, cosmopolitan society, where the case, creed and religion carried hardly any meaning. I enjoy the relationship of all the community including Muslims and have lots of Muslim female friends also, but I enjoy their relationship, a relationship which is true in real sense, a relationship of humanism, not the kind USE, ABUSE and DUMP. The awareness among the Muslim female of very high level (may they because they educated), and they have deep pain about their social condition, they on and often discussed that the lack of education in their community (which is unfortunately promoted by their own community people, and wants to keep under shackle for their vested interest). It is the message of those my sister like friends that Muslim female has to fight against such evils and acquire modern education, this is the only salvage. Jai Hind An Indian Forward Report abuse
UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby jeremy williams on Mar 17, 2007 02:14 PM Hide repliesHide-->
THE GUJARAT POGROM INITIATED BY THE RULING BJP GOVT., THE RAPING AND MURDER OF CHRISTIAN NUNS & PRIESTS BY HINDUTVA FORCES,THE MURDER OF GRAHAM STAINES AND HIS LITTLE CHILDREN IN ORISSA BY DARA SINGH ,A MEMBER OF HINDUTVA BRIGADE,THE CENTURIES OLD DISCRIMINATION OF THE DRAVIDIC NATIVES AND TRIBALS OF INDIA IN THE NAME OF CASTE SYSTEM.THESE ARE SOME OF THE HARSH TRUTHS MR GAUTIER WOULD LIKE US TO PRETEND DO NOT EXIST IN CURRENT DAY INDIAN SOCIETY.CRY MY BELOVED INDIA.CRY Forward Report abuse
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RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 02:42 PM"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942) Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 02:50 PMChristianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure?...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith.-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)More such quotes from Hitler in praise of Church from his Mein Kampf: http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby bharatiya on Mar 17, 2007 02:44 PMThe large scale demolition of Hindu temples by the portugese in Goa & by Muslims in the rest of India, the forced conversions, murder, rape & loot centuries after centuries cannot be forgotten. If you add up all the violent acts of Hindus in the entire history it will not even total to 6 months (& that too has always been as a reaction to something nasty you guys have done) whereas for Muslims & Christians it has been an everyday way of life for many centuries. Your b@lsh@% religions offer incentives like virgins & rivers of wine to lure you into crimes against humanity. You are agents of Satan on earth. It is a well known trick of the Satan that he pretends to be a devote Christian & shows his true colors when exposed. Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:02 PMAtrocities on Native people:Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion."While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued: I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ."In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead.The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous."The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive."Or, on another occasion:"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs."The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next."Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida)."When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."More Christian attricities(incomplete list):http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:09 PMyour list is really small Jeremy. Hindus and their so called "atrocities"(which even you need to exaggerate and concote with lies) are nothing before whatever happened in the name of Christ. Forward Report abuse
RE:RE:RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby chaitanya kumar on Mar 17, 2007 03:17 PMall you christians do is point at the Hindu caste system and the discrimination in it while you hide the atrocities of Church that will bewilder the devil and satan. As if the caste system is only followed by Hindus and rest are egalitarian. What happened to the discrimination between ruling class, working class...bourgeois , proletariat. Forward Report abuse
RE:UNTOLD TRUTHS BY FRANCOIS GAUTIERby pranat on Mar 17, 2007 03:23 PMAny progressive developing diverse country will have its share of problems in creating equitable distribution of wealth and social equaity that started in the last 3/4 centuries will hopefully be completed in this century. But clearly we neither did nor will like to go the way of Aurangzeb/Osama Bin Ladin (a radical Muslim) or lead a crusade against non cristin religions or have an Adolf Hitler here. These people wanted to kill humanity in millions. These were progroms to eliminate/annihilate other religions. Genocide directed at completely eliminating weaker minorities. I am happy that in Hindu Majority India, crimes of this horric nature have neither happened nor will happen. Thank the Hindu majority for this who are tolerant and stop crying about RSS/BJP at every given opportunity. Hindus now, in their own country dont even have a right to stop Islamic fundamentalism and cristian conversion... mostly encouraged by the outside powers and money. Forward Report abuse
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Why such acrimonious thinking Mr. Mohammed Ahmedby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 11:52 AM Hide repliesHide-->
A fresh reply to mohammed ahmed on Mar 16, 2007 04:03 PM [RE:Why the Afghanistan or any other countries / territories are of / for Muslims] against his few queries: Your comments - Islam is global, from the beginning, we want Islam in the whole world. My reply - What is meaning of global (tell me the % of population, % of acceptance of willingness), what is meaning of beginning (how old it is, tell me about your ancestral background, who they were, if you abuse to your own ancestors whose blessings you are, whose blood you carry, then what is impression you are spreading) and what is meaning of, we want ISLAM (meaning peace and justice) in the whole world, who cares what you want you have right to accept anything why should I captivate myself or others to illiteracy , unscrupulous religious leaders. Even your thinking is dirty that you want others should follow it and simultaneously you are claming ISLAM (meaning peace and justice), if you preach ISLAM and meaning is it, how dare you can think about democratic rights of others or in the word you yourself is abusing and pitting to ISLAM. This is the biggest problem with you fundamentalist; you dare to think the others should follow you. Gentleman, people follow a path as per their wish, considering its good and evil, where the very basic nature of Islam (or what it has been propagated by your so called religious leaders) is barbaric and forced. You people never come to rescue your own sister like Sania Mirza, when she is bashed by your religious leaders, you never utter single word about our great H.E. President APJ Abdul Kalam that when your people say that he is not Muslims and he is puppet etc. etc. since he practices the humanism not fundamentalism and now it is barbaric thinking that you want ISLAM (meaning peace and justice) in the whole world, what a rotten thinking. Gentleman go and cleanse you mind, you have right to thin about you but you should not dare to think about others, as they also have the same right and they are more intelligent than you as they do not mortgage their mind and soul to someone that too illiterate religious leaders. Your comment - we preach everywhere about the Creator, good things of life, good living, cooperation, charity, meditation, circumcision, burial of dead bodies with dignity. My reply %u2013 By the way, who decides which is good and which is bad? How dare you can think about the whole world and their thinking? Do you feel yourself that you are capable to do so or you are also life self-styled prophet, who can decide the fate of whole world. I think I need to tell that in non of the Gulf country where Muslims are in population, they have declared it as Muslim country (forget about the secularism), no democracy is there, literacy rate is dismally poor, even the person hold some qualification (not education) they are captive to illiterate religious leaders, they have fear to use their own brain (always use to quote misinterpretations or interpretations of some phrases of some books / preaches, which they themselves do not know what they are uttering), and here in India, they live in India, eat in India, drink in India, inhale in India but they are loyal to Arab countries or Pakistan and they declare it proudly. By the way can you tell me what should I learn %u2013 Jihad, killing of innocent people, unpatriotic acts, illiteracy, kept myself under the captivity of someone etc. etc. You should think about yourself and let other think about themselves. You can think that the day may come when other people like you would start thinking about their own Jihad, as you have right to decide to kill someone, the others may have right to kill you and they would justify your killing because of rotten thinking. Why do you want bring the hell for your brothers and sisters? Have you not seen the repercussion of Godhra Train Carnegie? I do not know whether the real culprita got any punishment or not but innocent people were killed who had nothing to do with Godhra incident. An elderly person was killed who was not related to Godhra incident, but suffered only because the people of his age did not teach their younger generation about the good, bad and their consequences. Gentleman, do not spread hatred, rather live peacefully and allow others to leave peacefully. This is the essence of Humanism, the biggest religion in the world and much bigger than your ISLAM. I pray to God (or your Allah) to cleanse your mind and pour some good thinking on you. An Indian Forward Report abuse
hindu muslimby Fayyaz A on Mar 17, 2007 11:09 AM Hide repliesHide-->
pls try to avoid to start the topics which increases the hate. kindly stop the topic, you are not doing the good .past is good ok but when it is bad then why are you opening it to initiate hate and mental block. an Indian Muslim Forward Report abuse
RE:hindu muslimby KALYAN MITRA on Mar 17, 2007 04:28 PMI do agree with you...forget past...we should start a fresh... Forward Report abuse
Read and replyby An Indian on Mar 17, 2007 10:36 AM Hide repliesHide-->
Reply to mohammed ahmed on Mar 16, 2007 04:03 PM [RE:Why the Afghanistan or any other countries / territories are of / for Muslims] Dear Mohammed Ahmed I could not understand the reason for your unusual anger as I had not target you but at the same time if you say that who told so for Muslim lands, you may go through several postings, under several articles, where your so fundamentalists brothers have written. At present I do not have the details, I am sure even under this article somewhere the people have justified Jihad for Israel occupied area, Iraq, Afghanistan, J&K etc. etc. claiming that there are fighting to liberate their motherland. Otherwise can you justify the meaning of Jihad and killing the innocent people, including children, woman and elderly people, only because you have gun in your hand and they are soft targets. Forget about the world history, just refer back the invasion of Islamic terrorists in this country, you may call it 500 years back or 1000 years back. Can you justify the forced conversion? Can you refuse the majority population is of forced conversion (there are 99.99% chances that your ancestors have also been forced, have you ever tried to go back to your own ancestors, when I telling this I strongly feel that you are from Indian origin), you can definitely think about your own ancestors, I repeat your own ancestors including female members and their agony when they were forced for conversion and other humiliation your female family ancestors had faced at that time (I could your understand what I want to say) . I am giving few links which are small example of barbaric invasion: http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A5220 http://www.stephen-knapp.com/an_architect_looks_at_the_taj_mahal_legend.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/badshahnama.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/letter_of_aurangzeb.htm http://www.stephen-knapp.com/question_of_the_taj_mahal.htm My brother my intention is not to annoy you rather to request just to open your own eyes, open your own brain, the precious gift of Almighty (the supreme power, you may call as ALLAH, or whatever suits you), release yourself from the captivation of fundamentalist cages. I am pasting a message which I had replied to someone which can open your eyes and change your mind and attitude that I am new to this discussion. In this context I would like to confirm that I have discussed these subject to my several Muslim friends & colleagues (educated, not fundamentalists, who bow to the reality not the baseless teaching of so called leaders. I hope you are also an educated person. I would request you to kindly go through the history (I am not recommending any rather advise you to go to the reputed authors and publishers (including Muslims authors) and judge yourself, again only after releasing yourself from the cages of fundamentalism Message No. 1 Dear Musfar Ahmed and all the people of community who are spreading the hatred Since all the people are more or more than average intelligent so I hope you are also, you can definitely think that who were you ancestors, whose son / daughters you are. You can change your religion, your coming generations can convert them to any religion (by force, by lure or otherwise), but you can never change your ancestors, your background, your roots etc. So far the religions are concerned, it has been started by someone (here the Hindu religion is the only natural religion, adopted from the lifestyle of this country and has not initiated and propagated by anyone). Whatever may be the reason (mostly forced at that time) for conversion to Islam, but it is certain that the root of 99% is from our great India only. You may go through (if you can) the back history of your own family and then only you can understand the agony and pain of your ancestors (especially the ladies), if you have your ancestral background. Go to history, you can definitely find and if you have the courage go to your own roots (after all your carry blood your own ancestors, I repeat, blood of your ancestors). I could not understand the meaning of %u2018WE%u2019, is it MUSLIM or INDIAN, I can safely presume that it is as MUSLIM and if it so then also the Muslims are not in majority within the pre-British border, but again I am not like you who is spreading against their own ancestors (your forefathers) or anyone. I also could not understand what is the meaning of we would be in majority. My great country India has record or real democracy (not like other Gulf-countries), our majority people (you can call them Hindu) has tolerance to promote non-Hindu leaders (including Muslims), promote them on the basis of their talent (not on the basis of their religion, present PM and President is example, though there are other series of examples available), our majority cheers the success of any person irrespective of his / her religion (example, Sania Mirza, our people have never bashed or abused her, though there are series of example about her clothing etc. etc. by so called Mulls / Maulvis / Muftis but the majority of the Muslims never came to support her and condemn so called religious leaders, though the truth is this that she is from you community and your sisters. Can you tell any other country where majority has accepted the minority leadership? Even in sports such dirty and disgraced religious fanaticism can be seen, a classic example is conversion of Christian %u2018Yousuf Yohana%u2019 to Muslim %u2018Mohd Yousuf%u2019 (Pakistan Cricket Team), whatever reason could be given i.e. acceptance to forced conversion to lure conversion etc. but the truth is he has been motivated to convert to Islam (now one can think about his family and relatives and why the Govt do not ban such type of nuisances, because such acts are state sponsored). What force a person to mortgage their brain and soul to so call filthy religious leaders? Why a person do not use his or her brain, a gift or nature / almighty of all (say God, Allhah etc,) and follow the misinterpretations (or interpretations) of their so called religious books. Are the misinterpretations or interpretations of so-called religious books provide better insight than the gift of Almighty (God or Allah)? Are you not insulting the Almighty (God or Allah) by doing so? Why an educated person does not take their own judicious decision and depend on the so called religious leaders? Any person (irrespective of any particular religion) can think judiciously and find the reason of vulnerability, religious fanaticism and terrorism. An Indian Message no. 2 Reply to dear Essa Ismail Sait, message posted on March 12, 2007 01:39 PM I the outset I would like to make it clear that my intention is not to hurt anyone. In my personal life I had discussed the matter with many of my Muslim friends and they have ultimately agreed the truth (only because they were educated, not fanatic by heart). I received many lessons from father of one of senior (an it was most fortunate that the he was Muslim but highly educated but not only degree holder qualified, the elderly gentleman was Bar-at-Law, his son i.e. my senior was a Management Graduate and, and elderly gentleman%u2019s daughter were also highly educated which are very rare in Muslim community and almost all the family were settled in London and ultimately my senior had also resigned with an intention to settle there. I was too young at that time may be 20 years back when the elderly gentleman told me that my community has become too vulnerable as they have fallen under the trap of unscrupulous political and religious leaders who are exploiting the sentiments of our youth for their dirty interest, be it religious or political and the most dangerous part is, that our youth our becoming religious fanatic and major reason is their emotion because of illiteracy. These unscrupulous political and religious leaders would damage our community to irreparable extent. Now after such long years I salute to that elderly person though he is no more know, for his vision and who taught me the meaning of philosophy in life i.e. open your eyes, see clearly, analyse properly, never follow what my leaders have told or what is written here or there and act accordingly. Always follow the path of humanity, not of any community, be true to yourself and almighty.) Now I come to your objection and request, the meaning of natural religion, it means it has not been initiated and propagated by anyone, so it does not have any such restriction which tell that one should be bound within these rules. With apology I would like to mention that you could not dare to accept the truth (though it hardly makes any difference, because truth would remain the truth whether you accept it or not) that Indian Muslims carry the Indian background, the background of this soil only. I think I need not to explain further. It seems that you are an educated person and that is why you have classified the modes of conversion. I need not to explain you as to what method of conversion was adopted at that time, though you are not responsible for that but you would be definitely responsible for your ignorance and not accepting the truth. I have no intention that you should accept the truth in this forum. Generally all the people are blessed with intelligent brain, so are you also. You go through the history (if possible, go to your own family background, under which circumstances they were converted, though it is practically not possible) and you would find that the comparison of farmer or criminal is meaningless as I had never mention this. I do agree that the birth of Islam and entry (rather invasion) in this country was much earlier than Moghul era. As per my history knowledge, it was sometime 612 AD from where the real spread of Islam started and if my memory is correct then it is around 570 AD when Prophet Mohd born, again the historians are also not unanimous about the birth year. But the truth is this that Akbar was the only secular emperor, who had started real secular religion called DIN-E-ILLAHI, but today nobody remembers even. The profile of rest of the muslim emperors are quite dubious, barring Bahadur Shah Zafar, but he did not have the leadership quality, though he was not religious fanatic. You have right to believe anything that you are generation of Adam and Eve so is I and all, but what I wanted to tell that what your ancestors were in between. Again my intention is not to hurt anyone. You have avoided the episode of anger and agony of your ancestors; again you have hundred and thousands reasons behind it. I once again reiterate that none of the conversion of that time was of category 3, i.e. Converting by understanding the religion as the people of that era were very innocent and had deep faith in their own custom, the custom they inherited / borrowed, so your attempt to paste category 3 at that circumstances is totally meaningless / irrelevant and so your justification in subsequent paragraph. So far the case of Mohd Yousuf is concerned, it is an example only as the forced conversion can be from gunpoint to harassment to creating the situation etc. etc. I do not know whether you are pro-Pakistan or not, but you can definitely go through the census of Pakistan from 1947 to last and can judge yourself about the decline of other religion people in that country. I had raised many other facts also and you must have read those. I could understand as to why you could not gain courage to raise those, like about the acceptance of other leadership, about the democracy, about the secular nature of nation etc. etc. Can any Muslim country would allow any Hindu or any other religion people to lead them. My intention here is not to bash anyone rather tell them to see themselves with their own eyes, though I know it is useless. Recently I met with a Senior Executive of an Oil Company and was a Muslim. We were waiting in lounge and could spent time together. By sheer chancee the talk turned toward this hot topic and I could feel the deep pain in his face about the vulnerability of the community. He was worried about his teenage daughter and son, about their society as he told how difficult rather impossible go get flat / house in cosmopolitan society as the people of other community does not want mix-up for such bad names, what would happen about the life partners of their kids etc. etc. as the gentleman was not religious fanatic and he does not want to grow his children under such environment which is nowadays highly vulnerable and susceptible. Though it was a casual meeting, he was not open to me, but what I could understand that he would encourage his children to break the barbarian shackle during their college days in European or American countries. I could refresh my memories about the teachings of that elderly man. Though I personally feel that all the people are not bad and this is certain. But it is also certain that major cause of hatred is terrorism which can never prosper and flourish without local support, be it through network, shelter, communication, logistics etc. etc. You may not agree but it is truth, be it Godhra, be it Mumbai or be it Varanasi. At the end I thank you for your message, which atleast does not spread any hatred but simaltanously does not reflect broadminded view also which is the need of hours. I apologize for my little harsh language but I could not get any appropriate word also which can reflect my disagreement with you but again it is not with any wrong intention. I welcome my real Indian Muslim brothers and sisters to fight with evils, may be anyone, do not support to wrong doing, might have committed by your own brothers and then only you can win the trust of others, which is the essence of brotherhood and I hope of the Islam also. Jai Hind An Indian Forward Report abuse
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